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Schneids

04-28-2004, 04:56 PM

I don't like my line
No reads, just seated...
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: The Schneids is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO raises, Button 3-bets, The Schneids calls, BB folds, CO calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players) 
The Schneids bets, CO calls, Button raises, The Schneids 3-bets, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players) 
The Schneids bets, Button calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players) 
The Schneids bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB
Main Pot: 12.50 BB, between Button and The Schneids. > Pot won by The Schneids (12.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
The Schneids shows As Ah (one pair, aces).
Button shows 8s Kc (one pair, eights).
Outcome: The Schneids wins 12.50 BB. 

I like my line line
...open raiser (MP) is the button from the AA hand. Also note he begins this hand with $115. Still no reads on other players.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: The Schneids is CO with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, MP raises, The Schneids 3-bets, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players) 
BB checks, MP checks, The Schneids bets, BB calls, MP raises, The Schneids 3-bets, BB calls, MP caps, The Schneids calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players) 
BB checks, MP bets, The Schneids raises, BB calls, MP bets $45 (All-In), The Schneids calls, BB calls.

River: (17.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players, 1 all-in) 
BB checks, The Schneids bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB
Main Pot: 17.50 BB, won by The Schneids.
Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by The Schneids.

Results in white below: 
MP shows As Th (one pair, aces).
The Schneids shows 7s 7c (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: The Schneids wins 18.50 BB. 

Thoughts on either?

worm33

04-28-2004, 05:47 PM

Why do you try to get cute with the first one? You have aces. Cap it pre-flop and lead out and dont stop raising till the river. Second hand pre-flop and on the flop played good. But on the turn what hand is he ever goona cap the flop with that you can beat when the ace pops off? Hes going all in you have no chance ever to move him off his hand. Why do you like your line again?

Schneids

04-28-2004, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you try to get cute with the first one? You have aces. Cap it pre-flop and lead out and dont stop raising till the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I remember thinking at the time, "if I call, maybe the first raiser will cap it, then I can get some extra bets post flop." I think it's ok not re-raising in some spots with AA when you are confident it can transcend into extra bets on the turn; however, I should only be making that decision when against opponents I am certain are overaggro (but if they're THAT aggressive then it's best to cap and keep betting the whole way because they'll still give me action the whole way despite my cap.)

[ QUOTE ]
Second hand pre-flop and on the flop played good. But on the turn what hand is he ever goona cap the flop with that you can beat when the ace pops off? Hes going all in you have no chance ever to move him off his hand. Why do you like your line again?

[/ QUOTE ]

By the end of the flop, I knew I was almost certainly going to showdown. And, I had decided the small stack was a clown (maybe I should have directly stated this in the second hand, but I figured maybe the first hand was evidence enough). So, the problem was that there was still a third party involved. When the third party didn't leave to the cap on the flop, I figured the ace served as a scare card that could perhaps bring him off some higher pocket pairs than mine (or 9's). I didn't raise necessarily because I thought I was leading against the clown. However, I did feel like I held a better hand than him more than 20% of the time (roughly the break even point of my turn raise, assuming I get it HU with him), and I raised to try to knock the third party off a stronger hand. Calling the turn, and then the river, costs me 40 bucks. Raising on the turn costs me 45 (assuming the clown reraises all in another 5). That is why I like the turn raise, even though it failed in its goal (since the BB called with his flush draw...as indicated by the river check/fold).

I think my play is defenseable. Is it not?

Ulysses

04-28-2004, 08:21 PM

Your play in hand 2 is exactly why these games are so great.

Schneids

04-28-2004, 09:37 PM

Question:
By the time hand 2 rolls around I've concluded MP is a maniac. Are you suggesting I fold? Sorry for not stating that, I assumed it was implied after seeing his 3-betting standards in hand one.

At first I couldn't tell if your statement, "Your play in hand 2 is exactly why these games are so great" was a backhanded slam on the way I played it, or a statement due to the fact MP capped the flop, but the fact you say your play definitely means me.

I explained my thought process to Worm. Given MP is a maniac clown, is this flop and turn line really that brutal? I guess if you still think so, I've got some things to address in my game since I still don't see it being that poor.

gonores

04-28-2004, 09:53 PM

Hand 1: Cap preflop...Especially if you plan on betting a tame flop like this. Very disjointed preflop -> flop strategy.

Hand 2: I cheated and read ahead, so I know MP is a maniac. Maniacs + short stack + extra player on probable draw = fun, so I'm comfy with the 3bet on the flop, even though it looks slow-playish. After the cap and the ace, it's time to give a little credit. Furthermore, BB called two extra preflop. Him having AsXs or something like that is a very strong possibility. The allure of the extra BB's your sucking out from the BB wouldn't be enough for me to start proceeding with caution on the turn.

D

Joe Tall

04-28-2004, 10:18 PM

Hand#1

Heads up I'd call preflop, but as soon as there is another involved, cap it.

Hand#2

I'd like to see a flop c/r before a bet/3-bet. On the turn, why raise? Even if he is a total clown, he's down to the felt and I don't see to many despartion all-ins at this level. Yet it's been a few months since I play shorthanded on Party, but I can't imagine being ahead here.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Ulysses

04-28-2004, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At first I couldn't tell if your statement, "Your play in hand 2 is exactly why these games are so great" was a backhanded slam on the way I played it

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think it was backhanded. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

With the third player involved in the pot, yeah, I think folding is quite possibly better than raising the turn. Look, you put the maximum possible into this hand and you think you're behind 80% of the time on the turn. I don't think giving excessive action to maniacs w/ marginal hands is the best strategy in these games.

[ QUOTE ]
Given MP is a maniac clown, is this flop and turn line really that brutal?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's somewhere between brutal and optimal. With a third player involved, I think it's closer to brutal. Basically, I think a lot of good players give up quite a bit by going overboard w/ the aggression, often using "my opponent is a maniac clown" as justification. The maniac's short stack here has some impact, so this is by no means a defining overaggro hand, but that does seem to be a common theme around here.