KJs UTG

[Bob T.]

Online 5-10 game, tight enough, so that winning more than your share of the blinds is a way to profit in this game.

UTG, I open raise with K /images/graemlins/spade.gifj /images/graemlins/spade.gif

MP, a reasonable player 3bets, and we see the flop.

Flop 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check planning on semibluff checkraising the turn if an A or K doesn't appear. MP bets, I call.

turn J /images/graemlins/heart.gif I check, MP bets, I raise, he calls.

River 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I bet, MP calls. He holds, AK off, and MHIG. Should I take the semibluff checkraise on the turn out of my repetoire against this player?

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[The Dude]

No, not necessarily. The fact that you check-raised the turn with the goods this time will make him more prone to lay down the hand in similar situations in the future. Heads-up you must do a lot more semi-bluffing to be profitable.

[sthief09]

If he's the type to call down after being check-raised on the turn while holding an unimproved AKo with no draws, then a semi-bluff check-raise probably wouldn't have been the best line against him. I do admit though that I would consider this my "default" play.

I guess this is where table image comes into play. Oddly enough, you'd think your table image would encourage him to fold.

[chesspain]

I guess I'm confused about using the "turn semi-bluf checkraise by default" here. Since you openraised UTG, you likely don't have a piece of that flop, and if you were still going to c/r on some rag, he will likely either: still call with AK, not believing that you didn't cap PF with KK or AA, or three-bet you with a premium pair.

This reminds me of a hand I played last night in a very loose Party 2/4 game against a lag who was becoming borderline-maniacal:

She openraised in MP, I reraised from the SB with red aces, folded back to her and she called:

4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, she called.


[4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif] 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, she raised(!?), I three-bet, she called.


[4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I checked, she bet, I called, and she took it down with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the rivered flush.

Unless her play was way over my hand, I did not understand her raising the turn, since as the preflop openraiser I didn't see how she could have had such a good hand as to raise. Consequently, she only cost herself more money to chase her draw. In fact, I don't see Bob T's hand as being much different than this hand here, in so much as his raise on a rag would have looked as much like a bluff as did my opponent's raise here.

[Joe Tall]

Here's the thing, you showed down the goods. He actually may be more inclinded to lay one down in the future heads up next time.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Eihli]

i know this isn't the question of the thread, but why raise KJs UTG? was this a shorthanded game?

[Joe Tall]

i know this isn't the question of the thread, but why raise KJs UTG?

Bob answered this question in his description, "tight enough, so that winning more than your share of the blinds is a way to profit in this game."

In a tight game, your raise UTG will often gain much respect. If you have good postflop skills, such as Bob does, playing KJs postflop is not much of a problem.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Bob,

I don't like it.

Since you described MP as "a reasonable player", I really dislike your turn play. Most of these players' 3-betting standards versus a UTG raise looks like this: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQs. The only hands that you want to check-raise the turn with are the latter two. You'll be 3-bet here on the turn extremely often, and will be behind virtually every time, yet you can't fold the turn and your hand really likes to be shown down. Avoid the situation by betting the turn and calling down a raise, or perhaps even check-calling the turn and betting a river blank. I think your plan on the flop is fine (though I like check-calling the flop and turn better given your opponents range of hands and the likelyhood of how many of those he's apt to lay down pre-river on a raggedy board), but you need to be able to change your plan as the hand progresses.

Yeah, the more I look at this hand, the more I dislike it. Let me sleep on it though...

GoT

[Mike Gallo]

Bob,

I like the way you played this hand.

Since you account for the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, you know he doesnt have A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif or A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif since you have the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Should I take the semibluff checkraise on the turn out of my repetoire against this player?

If he respects you and will fold, yes.

[Mike Gallo]

Bob,

I like the way you played this hand.

Since you account for the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, you know he doesnt have A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif or A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif since you have the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Should I take the semibluff checkraise on the turn out of my repetoire against this player?

If he respects you and will fold, yes.

[Eihli]

[ QUOTE ]
...or perhaps even check-calling the turn and betting a river blank.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've seen this a few times in game and on the boards. when is this the right play, and why?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Bob,
You'll be 3-bet here on the turn extremely often, and will be behind virtually every time, yet you can't fold the turn and your hand really likes to be shown down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is being 3-bet here the worst thing in the world, considering that you most likely have 14 outs? The times you hit your hand + the times you scare him off + the times he calls down with AK have to make the turn c/r +EV, don't they? I'm just thinking out loud.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...or perhaps even check-calling the turn and betting a river blank.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've seen this a few times in game and on the boards. when is this the right play, and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if he checks behind? Do you want to give a free card in this case, especially to someone holding AK or AQ? If he is on AA or KK, he will bet the turn and when you call and then bet a blank on the river he surely will raise, won't he? If that happens, do you muck? I'm not convinced that TPKK is an easy laydown in this case? I'm not sure how checking the turn makes sense here. But I'm not very good either. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Tosh]

I seem to be in a minority but I don't like check raising the turn after you hit a jack. It sucks to be 3 bet and that seems like a distinct possibility given his preflop 3 bet and possible holdings.

I would either bet or check call the turn and bet any non ace that didn't improve my hand on the river; and fold to a raise.

[Bob T.]

Once it is headsup, and it was by the time it came back to me on the flop, if I am ahead, I am not as likely to fourbet with any holding.

Imagine that you are my opponent, and you hold AK, how will you play a board that has a raggy flop? Lets see, Aggressive player opens UTG, you know that he occasionally opens light, folded to you, you threebet, and he calls headsup. The flop is 9 high, he checks, you bet, he calls. The turn is a jack, you don't want to give a free card here, so when he checks, you bet again, and if he just calls, then you have the decision to bet or check behind on the river. Does that sound familiar? If I can beat his hand, the way that I can get the most money in is to checkraise the turn, where he will most likely bet, and if he calls there and on the river I will have gotten my raise in on a big street, instead of preflop.

If my opponent is likely to check behind on the turn if he is unimproved, then I have to raise either the flop, or preflop if I am ahead, but since this opponent was tougher and more aggressive than that, I think the correct place to make my raise if I am ahead is on the turn. That is why I would checkraise the turn if I am bluffing.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[GuyOnTilt]

Imagine that you are my opponent, and you hold AK, how will you play a board that has a raggy flop? Lets see, Aggressive player opens UTG, you know that he occasionally opens light, folded to you, you threebet, and he calls headsup. The flop is 9 high, he checks, you bet, he calls. The turn is a jack, you don't want to give a free card here, so when he checks, you bet again, and if he just calls, then you have the decision to bet or check behind on the river. Does that sound familiar? If I can beat his hand, the way that I can get the most money in is to checkraise the turn, where he will most likely bet, and if he calls there and on the river I will have gotten my raise in on a big street, instead of preflop.

Hey Bob,

Well, I slept on it, and I still don't like the way you played this hand at all. Sure, your turn play works fine if your opponent has AK, but when he has Jacks or better (which he will more often, Bayesian speaking and otherwise) it absolutely sucks. Basically, you either have him drawing to 2 (TT) or 3 (AK) outs, sometimes 6 (AQ), or he has you drawing very live with a hand that's strong enough to be shown down, AND he's going to 3-bet you the times that you are behind. Even though we love to play aggressive here on 2+2, there are times for checking and calling all the way. This looks to be one of those times.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

If he respects you and will fold, yes.

How many of this opponent's 3-betting hands versus a UTG raise is he going to muck on the turn that Bob doesn't have drawing to 2 or 3 outs? How many is he going to 3-bet with when Bob is drawing very live with a hand that he's planning to take to showdown regardless?

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

[b]Is being 3-bet here the worst thing in the world, considering that you most likely have 14 outs? The times you hit your hand + the times you scare him off + the times he calls down with AK have to make the turn c/r +EV, don't they?[b]

No, it's not the worst thing in the world, but it is pretty bad. A turn 3-bet means that you're almost always going to be behind, yet you can't fold your top pair because you have a ton of outs. Then on the river a red deuce falls and you check and again don't fold because you have top pair in a big pot headsup on a Jxxxx board, so you call. That sucks. The mentality that "I don't care if he raises because I have a ton of outs" works fine as long as you don't have a hand worthy of showing down. If an A had hit the turn his check-raise would have more value, or if he had AJ and a K hit, etc. You get the idea. Bob's plan wasn't a horrible one (though I still don't think it's the best given what I perceive is his opponents range of hands preflop here), but I think he needs to change it once that turn card hits the board.

GoT

[tripdad]

yes, of course you do not want to bluff a calling station.

this particular play was not a semi-bluff though, as you had tp 2kicker + 2nd nut flush draw.

do not, however semi-bluff draws against him. i would be very suprised to see anyone tell you differently(haven't read any responses).

cheers!

[GuyOnTilt]

i've seen this a few times in game and on the boards. when is this the right play, and why?

You know, I regret writing that now. Check-calling the turn and betting the river is not a good play here. I would check-call the turn, and then on the river check or bet depending. If a J falls, I would check-raise most. If a K falls, I would bet out against most. If a low flush card came, I would check-raise. If an A flush card came, I'd bet.

The check-call, check-call, bet line is best when headsup and your opponent's range of hands is such that you most likely have his drawing to 2 or 3 outs, but he has a hand that will bet-bet-and then check through on the river. For example, I have AJ and open-raise and get 3-bet. Flop is A22. My best line against most opponents is to check-check-bet.

GoT

[Bob T.]

[ QUOTE ]

No, it's not the worst thing in the world, but it is pretty bad. A turn 3-bet means that you're almost always going to be behind, yet you can't fold your top pair because you have a ton of outs. Then on the river a red deuce falls and you check and again don't fold because you have top pair in a big pot headsup on a Jxxxx board, so you call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm, this is a pretty good argument. Now I have to sleep on it. Or think about it while I am at work (Don't tell my boss, although I suspect that he suspects that I spend a lot of time at work thinking about poker).

But this is why you post these hands, so you get something to think about.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[tripdad]

now that i have read all the responses, it seems the great majority do not even answer your question....or maybe i didn't read this post right. do you want critique on your play, or just to know in general whether to remove the semi-bluff check raise from your repertoire against this particular opponent?

cheers!

[tolbiny]

"I suspect that he suspects that I spend a lot of time at work thinking about poker."

Alright, nice second level thinking there Bob, just hope for your sake he doesnt start to suspect that you suspect that he suspects...

[AceHigh]

I'm with GOT and Tosch on this one.

One of the problems is you have to call a 3-bet on the turn because of your flush draw outs, so that makes check/raising less attractive. And then you might have to call a river bet if you think your opponent is tricky.

You should probably check/raise on the flop if you are going to use this line, in that case you only really get punished if you opponent has AA or KK, because you are drawing to at least 12 outs against worse hands.

[mauisupaman]

No. Howzit going Bob? Long time. I've been over on the dark side in NL. But after taking some bruises and coming out on top, I'm ready to come back to limit soon. Well, after I get a couple more guys to go all in preflop against my AA when they hold JTo or something to that extent.
A hui hou,
Adam

[Bob T.]

Ok, after thinking about it at work, as promised, I came to the conclusion that I have to be reasonably certain that my opponent would threebet as weak as AQo, for the checkraise to be correct. I don't think that is usually the case.

I think calling is now correct, and I think that the turn checkraise as a semibluff, isn't going to work often enough to make it correct in this situation, because the hands my opponent is going to hold, won't laydown very often.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Bob T.]

Aloha Adam,

How have you been? Are you going to be in Maui this winter. We will be there for a couple of weeks, probably in early february. Maybe we can hook up then.

Later,
Bob T.