PP NL200- i won a huge pot but did i play this wrong?

[pokerraja]

hi guys, this is my first post here. i have been lurching around for a long time.

i have loosened up a bit pre-flop in the NL200 game. i only play short-handed now at PP. since i have loosened up, my winnings have improved.

last night. im in BB ($240) with Q, 10 spades. UTG who was a loose maniac player ($330) open raised for $20, folded to button ($250) who smooth called, not much of a read on him yet. As i said earlier i have loosened up lately on my preflop calls. i really like playing suited connectors and even sometimes suited one-gappers against a raise due to the implied odds involved. so I call for $20 and at least want to see the flop.

FLOP was (9s, js, 4d). leaving me with open ended straight flush draw. I check, UTG bets out $80, button goes all-in for his remaining $230. leaving me to call with my remaining $220. I put both on pocket pairs like AA, KK, QQ and maybe even JJ to make a set. after much deliberation, i call the bet. UTG then reraises the button for an additional side pot. This table was wild to say the least.

Turn brings my 8 diamonds for the nut straight. and river improves my hand with an Ace spades to complete my Q high flush. I take down a $720 pot. It turns out UTG had KK, button had 99.

Now today, i have been thinking about that hand. I realize that was pretty loose to call a $20 raises with Q,10 spades preflop. was that correct to call $220 on a draw? I figured i had 17 outs with my open ended straight flush draws out of 46 unseen cards. so the pots was giving me great odds to call. would you guys make this call? was it a total fish move? thanks for any insight.

[Paul2432]

I'm not crazy about the call pre-flop, but after the flop its an easy call.

Paul

[Garland]

Welcome pokerraja,

I believe the blinds are $2/$4 for the NL 200 game. If raised to $20 and only one caller, dump this hand. You are out of position with a drawing hand at best.

There are two ways to win: 1) show the best hand at showdown time or 2) make everyone fold

Since 2) is impossible, the only way to win is to show the best hand.

You have Q high now. In order to make the best hand, you'll have to draw to either a spade or an 8 or K. It's really mathematics at this point. You said you have 17 outs. You probably are thinking of 4 kings, 4 8s and 9 spades. It's incorrect as the king of spades and the 8 of spades should only be counted once and thus you only have 15 outs (but two of which make you the nuts). You're asked to put in $220 into a pot that has $62+$80+$220 (=$362 ... not eligible for other $10). that's $362:$220. You have a better than even shot (~54%) of hitting your straight or flush by the river (so 46:54 odds). A call is obviously right? So what's the problem with this logic?

#1. You're probably looking at a set based on the action. So even if you make a straight or flush, you're also looking to avoid the board pairing.

#2. You're probably looking at an overpair. If that overpair is KK, then two of your outs are already gone.

#3. There's even a possibility someone has a higher flush draw than yours.

I would lay this down after the raise and reraise, but the decision is very close. If I were in this hand, I would have pushed first, not checked.

Garland

[fsuplayer]

Preflop:
It comes awfully close to violating the 10% rule. (if the raise is more than 10% of you or the raisers stack, fold it up)
This goes for speculative hands like small-mid pairs, suited connectors and suited aces. Although I am least likely to call raises with suited aces bc with those you are most likely dominated and have to hit the flush or trips to be good.
So preflop your call is borderline, but as long as you make sure and not get involved without at least two pair.
The flop is a dream come true and you should be tripping over yourself to get your money in. Even if manianc goes allin and shows me AA, and the other guy calls and shows me the set...I still call and feel good about it 2-1 on just under an even money shot!

Great hand.
If you were to push on every openended st. fl. draw, you would come out way +EV in the end.
Esp. at Party bc people will call that huge over bet with just one (over)pair, and you will hit that draw and take down an overpair over 50% of the time.

FsuPlayer

BTW How are those games compared to the Party $100NL. Dont have the roll, or the game yet, but I am curious.

[pokerraja]

garland-
thanks so much for the response. i really appreciate your thourough explanation. i agree with everything you said. i have been playing NL poker for about 6 months and im doing fairly well. im trying to learn as much as i can. and posts like yours are really appreciated. i feel like this situation was tricky for me. i actually understand that i had no business in this hand in the first place. calling $20 preflop with Q,10 s is not a smart play. but lets not consider that decision. i played Q, 10 on the pretense knowing that it was a bad call.

so having said that. preflop since i was first to act, maybe I should of took a pot sized stab at the pot? i thought about doing that. but the way this table was pushing money around i knew I would be put all-in by one or both of them. so after checking, and haveing the button put me all-in. I actually thought about folding, realizing i was up againt a big pocket pair or even a set. im actually not the type of player who likes to take a gamble out on a draw. but i then said, lets dance, and i called. the rest is history. so for once i give someone a bad beat!

post flop, what would you have done?

[kerpowski]

Garland,

More good things will happen with the all-in checkraise than with the push.

With a preflop raiser and another caller behind you there is a good chance that one of them has an overpair or a set (as you mentioned). An overpair will bet out and, whether he calls your all-in checkraise or not, you'll have more money in the pot as a slight favorite. There is a chance that he will fold to your checkraise, most likely around the same proportion of the time as with a straight out push (but again with more money in the pot).

With a push first to act it is less likely that you'll get called by an overpair but you will always get called by a set. This means that you got less money in when you are a slight favorite and put them to a much less difficult decision when they do have the overpair. You will still get all-in when you are against a set.

The all-in raise by the Button is unfortunate but going for the checkraise still seems correct.

[pokerraja]

Fsuplayer-
thanks for your response also. i was pretty excited to see that flop. and you made a good point, that if i do make this call preflop, i have to be very careful post flop. even on board of Q, J, 4, i would probably fold to a bet.

as to your question. As of late I play only short-handed (6 man) tables of mostly NL100 and at times NL200. I do not see much difference if any at all. I play mostly latenight and its always loose with chips flying all over the place. I have been doing well. one thing i would advise is to have a decent bankroll, cuz the bad beats will always be there. At these short tables you can pick apart a weak player. There are a few sharks to watch out for at the NL200. they mostly sit at the full tables.

[george w of poker]

its not an even money shot if one of them has the set. you are only winning 36% if you are against a set and kings and 40% if you are against a set and aces with the ace having one of your spade outs. its still a call though. to me it doesn't look like the button has a set. i was a little surprised to see that he did. i think most players would just call there.

[fsuplayer]

George W.-

three way pot, already $140 in there w/o your call, one player left to act, manianc betting god knows what and you want to call???

I think this is a raise or even push situation if I have ever seen one. 9s Qs x
That is one nasty drawing board.

Heads up with the maniac and I flat call, threeway, I raise and probably push. I dont want to flat call and face a large bet when the Ks falls (or any # of awful cards for a set of nines there).

I know I would love to trap the maniac, but not with that board.

BTW The maniac called, that just goes to show even more why the button should have (and did)pushed, when he is almost positive he is ahead.

FsuPlayer

[george w of poker]

good point