KQs against a PF 3 bet

[Alobar]

just sat down so I have no reads

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CO calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (12.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 16.50 BB, between Hero and MP1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP1 (16.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Kc Qc (two pair, kings and queens).
MP1 shows Ks Kd (full house, kings full of eights).
Outcome: MP1 wins 16.50 BB. </font>

thoughts?

[sfer]

I play it the same. You pretty much have to bet the flop, as distasteful as it is, to try to get the CO and SB to fold.

[bisonbison]

looks good to me.

[sweeneyagonistes]

yeah, that's a toughie. i play 2/4 quite a bit and even if you had been at the table all day with the guy the play might not have been any easier, unless you discovered this strange habit of his to push immediately with an unbeatable hand. if he reraised in MP i'd say you pretty much have to assume high pocket pair as most of the players at those tables will mostly cold call with AKs. even still, your play of this hand seems willfully self-decieving. you could only have him on really 5 hands: AA, AKs (unlikely given the reraise, although his bet on the flop makes it more likely), KK, QQ, JJ, KQ, or AQs. if you put him on these hands, then calling the raise on the flop is insanity, although the check-call on the turn makes sense. but even though you hit the queen on the river, think about it. AA? beats you. KK beats you, QQ, any 8, like A-8 (people do stay in for 3 with A8 suited at 2/4 on party), even JT. so really, continuing in this hand, even past the flop, seems to me to be a mistake, but even if you decide to play, the bet on the river was a waste any way you look at it, because you know that if you get called, at best you will split, and calling that raise is another 4 down the drain.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
just sat down so I have no reads

thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts:
I like a limp here for several reasons
1.) You have no idea what the table is like sooooo....if is loose, well, your hand plays well in a mulitway pot, so why drive them away??.......if it is tight your hand plays well short handed, but if you are raised at a tight table you could be dominated by AK or AQ or (KK /images/graemlins/tongue.gif).....so since I'm a wimp, I limp.

2.) Why would MP1 raise the flop and possibly drive out the CO? Granted, the CO cold-called 3 preflop, but then let HIM 2-bet the flop and maybe Hero 3-bets. Am I in the wrong here? This baffles me.

[BigEndian]

CR the flop. If he 3-bets then you have some useful info. Lead the turn regardless and fold to another raise against a typical opponent. Or, check-call the turn/river against someone who you think might try to push you off.

- Jim

[JTG51]

What hands are the CO and SB going to fold on the flop that you actually want them to fold?

When they're behind they're almost always going to have two outs or less, and they certainly aren't folding a better hand.

[sfer]

D'oh. Good point. I didn't notice the flop was paired. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[brian0729]

I like the C/R on the flop as well. This is a good flop for you hand. I would check call this river and I do not like the bet. What hands does the average 2/4 Party player 3bet pre flop with that you are ahead of now?

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
What hands does the average 2/4 Party player 3bet pre flop with that you are ahead of now?

[/ QUOTE ]

AK

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
What hands does the average 2/4 Party player 3bet pre flop with that you are ahead of now?


[/ QUOTE ]

AK, AQ, JJ, TT (sometimes) but AK is most likely here.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
CR the flop. If he 3-bets then you have some useful info.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do I do with that info? say he 3 bets my CR, do I fold? call and hope to hit my 5 outer on the turn? But say I hit a K or Q on the turn, then I'm in the same posistion I was on the river. Bet and fold to a raise?

[BigEndian]

If he 3-bets, you have to give him credit for a hand that beats yours. Call it down if you want to look him up or not give the impression that you are weak.

I mentioned betting out on the turn, but now that I think about it some more, I don't like it. Either call down or fold the turn unimproved.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

Coincidentally, I had a hand much like yours tonight and experimented with a different strategy. I don't actually like the line I played - I feel like the better hand folded (or another KQ). And at these stakes, that's a very rare occurance. But it could also be an over-played JJ, QQ or worse.

At any rate, food for thought.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: BigEndian is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BigEndian calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BigEndian checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BigEndian raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, BigEndian calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BigEndian checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BigEndian raises</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 7.25 BB, won by BigEndian.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by BigEndian.</font>

- Jim

[Alobar]

I can't really see him laying down a hand you couldn't beat, so he was prolly holding something like JJ QQ. Or maybe the turn st8 card scared him.

[Trix]

Check-calling the flop and turn is probably better for the reason JTG gave.
On the river I´ll put him on AA-TT,AK if I have check-called all the way.
He will probably check JJ-TT behind, but bet AA-QQ and AK, meaning that its 14:2 for you being ahead, when he bet, so I´ll check-raise.
I dont like betting as you will almost only be raised when you loose and you have to call anyway.
By check-raising you will also sometimes get a call from CO.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
D'oh. Good point. I didn't notice the flop was paired.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was a good point too but does the flop being paired really have that much to do with it? If you replace one of the 8's with a 4 or some other rag doesn't the same hold true?

[JTG51]

If you replace one of the 8's with a 4 or some other rag doesn't the same hold true?

If the flop was instead K84 not only does it make a gutshot possible, but someone is more likely to have middle or bottom pair, a hand which has five outs against KQ. The pot is big enough that you'd like someone with five outs to fold.

With a K88 flop no one can have five outs against KQ. They either have it beaten or have three or two outs to win.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
If the flop was instead K84 not only does it make a gutshot possible, but someone is more likely to have middle or bottom pair

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you're saying. But for 3 bets preflop is it reasonable to assume that no one has 56 or 57, or even any hand with a 4 or an 8 unless they just hit a set? Of course there are a lot players who you cannot make these assumptions against but it seems that even with a flop of K84 rainbow you are still very likely either way ahead or way behind.

[JTG51]

Tons of players on Party would play hands like 56 or A4 for 3 bets preflop, especially from the blinds. But I agree that those hands still aren't all that likely.

That wasn't really my point though. I'm just saying that in general there's a significant difference between a K88 flop and a K84 flop when you have KQ. Certainly enough of a difference that you should at least think about how it might change your play. Whether it changes your play in this specific example is open for debate.

[sfer]

You're either way ahead or way behind of the preflop 3-bettor, but you still want to thin the rest who could be drawing correctly to their trips/2nd pair outs. If I could read properly, that's what I was trying to convey in my original post. Heads-up I think this is a pretty straightforward check/call hand without a better read.

[bernie]

Id have checked the river and called a bet.

b