Playing an overpair...

This is more a hypothetical hand than anything else - I've been in this spot before and not sure that I have always played it optimally.


So, I figured I'd post the gist of it here and let everyone else comment. It's a little hard to make the entire scenario up since I can't specify exact action - so bear with me here...


Your on the button with 9s9h and UTG+2 raises and you get 2 callers - rest fold.


What is your play pre-flop? Do you re-raise here or cold call? Why?


Flop: 6c 3s 8c


UTG bets one player calls.


What's your play here? What do you think UTG has? The cold caller?


Turn: (6c 3s 8c) 4h


Still got top pair on the board but with some funky draws live. UTG is betting into you again. Last player folds so now it's heads up.


What do you do now?


River: ((6c 3s 8c 4h) 10s


Hmmm - the 10 probably couldn't have helped him, but yet UTG open raises.


What's your play here - if you have made it that far? :-)

with this board:


pre flop ...call...raise for variation maybe


flop....call if no preflop raise, i may raise here..utg could have a variety of hands here


turn.....raise fold to reraise go for free showdown, while trying to cut the field


river check or bet.


could change depending on players though...but its a start...couple other different ways of playing it...raise the flop, bet the turn, check the river; raise flop, check turn, bet/call river...

many options...


b

Here's what I was thinking...


I simply call down the pre-flop raise and see the 3 way flop.


UTG bets and gets a couple callers.


How about check raising here?


What I like about this is that you can get some valuable information about what UTG has. Certainly he hasn't pre-flop raised UTG with anything less than my 9's and it is possible that he's holding a high overcards (say AKs).


If I check raise the flop I figure I'm 'showing' him that perhaps I flopped a set (since I limped in on the button) and I want to fast play this with a straight on the board.


I figure if I get called here, I have gained some valuable information about UTG's hand. If I get re-raised here I may think about laying my hand down and saving 9's for a better opportunity. Is this a dumb play?


Thinking of improving to a set on the turn for me here doesn't help much as a 9 showing up on

this board probably hurts me more than helps me.


So really, If I think anyone has anything better than 9's then I should get out of this hand as both of my outs are more likely going to help the drawing hands more than me.


Comments?

Pre-Flop. With 3 already in I call. You're getting close to odds to flop the set, plus the chance you are ahead. If the raiser is at all loose I would 3-bet if there were no other callers and try to get heads-up.


Flop. I would raise here. I have no idea what UTG has, that's why you raise. The caller seems to be drawing, but it could be a straight or flush draw or even just overcards. If you are raised back, you are probably facing a big pair. If not you now control the hand. You can choose to bet or check the turn depending on what falls.


It's difficult to comment on the rest of the play. I assume you just called at each step which makes it difficult to determine what he has. Put yourself in his place. Maybe he has AK or AQ. He gets 3 callers to his raise. He bets the flop and drops one of you. He bets the turn and drops the 2nd. Now the flush misses on the river, he probably bet's hoping you fold. Now give him AA. He plays it exactly the same way. You have learned nothing.


Once you called the turn, I think you are commited to calling him down. But I think you have to make a play earlier to define the hands.

Preflop I would probably just call also. Fold if UTG has tight raising standards. Reraise if he doesn't, and its folded to you. I will raise on the flop here all the time. If UTG reraises, fold most of the time. If he calls, bet the turn when he checks to you and check the river behind him unless you make a set. If for whatever reason you decide to call a turn bet almost always call the river. But usually I'm either gone by then or I'm the one betting, not calling.

Excatly David - I figured the same thing - if I got him on any pair higher than mine he's going to play it the same way - so I have to mix it up a little to get an idea of what he has.


I think check raising the flop is a good play here, for 2 reasons:


1. If you get re-raised you are probably facing a high pair A/K/Q and now you have gained some valuable knowledge you didn't have previously.


2. If you simply get called down - now you STILL have more info but now you may be driving. The turn comes and helps noone and now the action gets checked to you.


I think check raising the flop is a smart play - and was hoping someone would bring that up but havne't seen it so far yet.


Comments?

UTG is going to bet first - so you don't get a chance to raise him. He raises you FIRST now you can simply CALL here or check raise to gain some additional information.


read my other posts on this thread regarding my ideas on why to CR.

Sucka,


If you are on the button you can't check-raise. You are last to act. But the raise is the right play on the flop I believe. Understand that a tricky player may still 3 bet you with AK, you can't automatically fold to the 3-bet, but consider it.

With four callers (UTG raiser and three others), you can call. But, a fold is not out of the question. In these situations, I consider 99 a drawing hand. It is most unlikely that you will end up with an overpair and can win (if it goes to the river) unimproved. So, you are looking to flop a set. With a tight-solid player, you should fold to his raise.


The double bet seriously reduces your implied odds and the profit from this hand comes from seeing the flop for one bet with 4 or more others and flopping a set (at least in low limit, assuming somewhat loose, hold 'em).


A bet or raise on the flop accomplishes the following three things: 1) Gets money in the pot if you have the best hand, 2) Pressures overcards (your major threat) to fold, 3) Gets information and 4) Maybe gets a free card. The third reason is not sufficient alone for a bet/raise.

That's what happens when you 'make up' situations like this.


Either way - I agree that the raise here is the best solution to figure out where you stand.

1 problem with raising the flop is that theres 2 other players in. your giving them odds to call the turn bet. re: draw is on the board

your flop raise may very well just get called around, then if the flush hits, or an overcard, youll wish you didnt put that bet in. epsecially when you could just call and close the action behind you.


however, its not a bad play if you know how to get away from the hand should a scare card hit, and someone bets into you on the turn.


if the pot was smaller, then id lean moretowards the flop raise...


oh...1 more thing....you cant checkraise from the button...haha /images/wink.gif


b

What is your play pre-flop? Do you re-raise here or cold call?


If you are regularly asking yourself this when considering a pre-flop problem, you are making substantial mistakes.


Cold-calling EP raises should be a very rare play for you to make. It should happen so rarely that you struggle to remember the last time you did it.


The proper question is: What is your play pre-flop? Do you re-raise here or fold?


You will flop a set or better 11.76% of the time. However, you will not always win when you flop a set. Assuming you win about 80% of the time you flop a set or better (I'm trying to get good data on this. 80% seems very generous), you will win about 9.5% of the time.


The upfront cost of entering this pot is 2.0 small bets (assuming no 3-bet). If you play the hand 100 times, it will cost you 200 small bets total.


When you win (9.5 times out of 100), you will collect the 10 small bets in the pot (let's say big blind calls one small bet. Again, very generous). That's a total of 95 small bets. You will need to win an additional 11.05 small bets per winning hand ((200-95)/9.5) post-flop to break even.


Collecting 5.5 big bets post-flop shouldn't be very difficult. It can bet done but it's hardly guranteed in a 4-way pot or if players drop quickly on the flop. However, that's just to break-even and it does not consider the times you will lose multiple bets post-flop when you do flop a set.


Remember the proper question: Do you re-raise here or fold?

Dynasty,


If I was first to act after the raiser I'm thinking raise or fold, but with the additional callers I tend to start thinking some hands (Suited cards or pocket pairs) are worth a call.


Do you look at this and think "this pot is at least 4-way, will i win more than 25% and if so raise, if not get out"?


When do you cold call pre-flop?

If there were just one more caller ahead of me, I think a cold-call with a pocket pair is much more playable. They key is to figure out whether or not you can make back the money post-flop. In order to do this, you usually need a multi-way pot.


When do you cold call pre-flop?


I gave this some thought after a post a couple weeks ago. The only hands I've cold-called a raise with over the past several months are AQs, KQs, and ATs. Calling with ATs was a mistake. I posted the ATs hand in mid-stakes about 1-1.5 months ago.

I don't remember cold-calling a raise with AJs. I'd probably only do it after many others have cold-called as well.