Thirty-four AAs

[ddubois]

Of the 34 times I've had pocket aces, I've raised preflop and merely stolen the blinds 6 times. A few more times I had one or two callers to put a SB in to see the flop, but then folded the next street that I bet on. (I tried a variety of slowplaying post-flop to see if I could induce bluffs.)

I read recently winning the blinds with AA was "a catastrophe". What techniques should I consider to avoid this? I've heard of limp-reraising, but I've never done it. What positions would you try this from, and what kind of table conditions?

[bernie]

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I read recently winning the blinds with AA was "a catastrophe".

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I hate this friggin' line.

It sounds like you're not raising enough hands preflop, nor betting enough hands postflop. Just a guess if you're not getting much action on your aces.

But you dont mention the other 20+ times you played them. How did those do? You dont always get action when you raise.

b

[ddubois]

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I hate this friggin' line.

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True, winning is never awful.

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It sounds like you're not raising enough hands preflop

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Hmm, 7.45 PFR. About average?

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nor betting enough hands postflop

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Aggression factor 0.38 / 1.70 / 1.85 / 2.10. I have no friggin clue where these numbers stand.

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But you dont mention the other 20+ times you played them. How did those do?

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2.5bb/hand. Winning a whopping 82%. (My win rate was exactly half that at .5/1!)

[bernie]

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Hmm, 7.45 PFR. About average?


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Is this a %? It looks a little low if it is. Maybe not. If its the % of hands you raise preflop when you see the flop, i think it looks kind of low. Id have to see your preflop raising standards to be sure. You may just not be getting many raising hands.

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Aggression factor 0.38 / 1.70 / 1.85 / 2.10. I have no friggin clue where these numbers stand.


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I have no idea what these numbers mean. But someone else may know. I think they represent the 4 streets. But other than that...

Unfortunately, stats dont tell us/me how you play certain hands. Like, non AA hands. Or how you approach certain hands preflop. The stats dont indicate the situations presented.

b

[balkii]

2.5bb/hand.

I think this is pretty close. Mines like 2.8 or so but you've only had it 34 times. You dont have anything to worry about. Some days you take the blinds down every time, some days they get cracked every time, and some days you win a monster pot from some guy with KK who refused to stop raising and scared you into just calling down and now you're thinking about all the bets you missed.

[blackaces13]

Are you telling me that you've never seen the river with 34 rockets? I don't believe it, no way. Everytime I raise them I get all the callers I can handle and usually need to improve to win the hand.

[bisonbison]

Everytime I raise them I get all the callers I can handle and usually need to improve to win the hand.

Not bloody likely.

[Ponks]

Damn lol, my aces are getting me 1.06 bb/hand. I'm only winning em about 55% of the time. Going through a real bad streak with em, and only 7k hands in PT, so I know it'll even out overtime. I cant wait, my aces cant get any worse :P

[sthief09]

bro you're making a post that is based on a sample size of 34

it's not that hard to play aces. concentrate on the more important things that will make you a better player, like how to play your drawing hands

[ddubois]

Sample size is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. I am merely using my results to segue into a discussion about the concept of "AA is worth more than the blinds", and how to avoid the so-called "catastrophe" of AA merely taking them. I want to know people's thoughts on the topic - limp-re-raising being one of the tactics I've read about (but not in any meaningful depth).

[sthief09]

and I'm saying it doesn't matter

and that is straight out of a Mason Malmuth essay... if you'd like me to post some quotes from the essay that prove the point, I'd be glad to.

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but I honestly want you to realize how little this matters. you should worry about the situations that are hard to play

[bisonbison]

If you never want the blinds to fold, never raise. Is that what you want to hear?

You raise because people expect it, because it covers later raises with worse holdings, and because you may very well run into someone who wants to give you action before the flop makes it clear they don't have a hand.

[BaronVonCP]

I'm at 2.85, with 199 hands. Not much higher than yours. How much do you want to win?

[ddubois]

Yes, please link this essay. I think that wuold be much more fruitful than implying I'm not qualified to explore a topic.

[ddubois]

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I'm at 2.85, with 199 hands. Not much higher than yours. How much do you want to win?

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As much as possible? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[karlson]

Based on the numbers you posted it really looks like you're not raising nearly enough preflop.

[Dynasty]

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bro you're making a post that is based on a sample size of 34

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34 is rather close to a good sample size for the play of one specific starting hand.

[sthief09]

ok but then he's talking about open raising vs open limping, which turns that 34 into about 10 considering the loose games he's playing in.

do you really think strategy playing AA first in matters that much against Party players?

[JDErickson]

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Is this a %? It looks a little low if it is. Maybe not. If its the % of hands you raise preflop when you see the flop, i think it looks kind of low. Id have to see your preflop raising standards to be sure. You may just not be getting many raising hands.


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This I imagine is a Pokertracker stat. It is % of your TOTAL hands you have raised. This is actually a decent %.

DDubois - Your aggression factors look a little low post flop. Its possible that when opponents see you goping nuts with the aces that they get the clue. Try playing your hands a little harder postflop. Show down a few mediocre hands.

Having said all this also remember your sample size is very small. I've had AA 227 times and I barely have enough history to make a ballpark guess on how AA will perform long term. Your AA BB/100 looks in line so I would say you just need more hands for your sample.

Jim

[sthief09]

I think that wuold be much more fruitful than implying I'm not qualified to explore a topic.

I never said you weren't qualified to "explore the topic." If you aren't qualified then I'm sure as hell not qualified. I'm just saying that there are more important things you need to worry about. In the time spent on this thread you could be posting hands you played.



These excerpts come out of Poker Essays III, in an essay called Unusual Strategies

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Imagine you're playing hold 'em; you pick up your cards and discover you hold two aces. Thrilled about achieving this 220-to-1 shot, you raise the blinds and watch everyone else fold. You're disappointed; but at least you've won the blinds

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...

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So, when is it best to limp on or raise with two aces? Should you be trying to trap people or is it best to limit the field to maximize your chances of winning the pot

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...

ok, then to paraphrase the rest, the problem with always limping in EP with AA is because if you have any observant opponents, they will know that if you raise, you don't have AA and probably not KK. so you shouldn't always do one thing.


Then there's another essay out of the same book called It Doesn't Matter

(now I know this doesn't directly apply to your question, but I'm putting this in anyway)

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Recently, an acquaintance in the poker room wanted my opinion on limping with aces one off the button in a limit hold 'em game. Apparently, another writer had recommended this play in his poker column... My answer was that it probably didn't matter and that surely there were many more important things to be concerned with when sitting at the hold 'em table

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then he goes through a bunch of calculations and then...

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Conclusion: Think about something more worthwhile

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I confused the two essays and actually thought that he wrote that AA UTG doesn't matter, so that's why I said that your situation doesn't matter. Either way, I think you should work on more important things.

[Styles]

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and I'm saying it doesn't matter

and that is straight out of a Mason Malmuth essay... if you'd like me to post some quotes from the essay that prove the point, I'd be glad to.


[/ QUOTE ]

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!

am I the only one frustrated by this, over and over topics covered in the books that apparently no one is reading or has???

This is a 2+2 Forum, how about buying and reading some of the books people, then ask questions so we can all learn?

Crazy I know /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Styles]

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Yes, please link this essay. I think that wuold be much more fruitful than implying I'm not qualified to explore a topic.


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Maybe he could just play your AA hands for you? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[beta77]

I don't know what limit you're playing at, but based on your aggression numbers I'd like to suggest that you may be limping in to too many pots preflop. With a PF aggression number of 0.38, this equates to limping (and completing SB) of about 19.75%, which means that your VP$IP is about 27%. Generally speaking, I think that this may be too high.

If you are seen to be limping in this often, it is possible that people may give you credit for a strong hand when you DO raise. Aside from the other reasons for not limping so often, this may be another symptom of these plays.

[Styles]

DDubois,

I'm not posting this to challenge or embarass you just as a possible answer to your problem with AA.

If you show 7.45 PFR then I believe you, but, I don't have you raising even half that much.

Perhaps you drastically changed your play and it hasn't caught up with you yet particularly with your opponents?

IE you want those people "that realize things" to see you raising with some "other" hands to call you down with AA.

There aren't that many observant opponents out there on Party, but, I've played with you a few times and I have you as "passive".

If you did change your style of play maybe you can look at the results of those 34 hands of AA before and after?

Just a thought. FWIW, I recently raised my PFR and I went from about 2.9BB/hand with AA to 3.36BB/hand. So maybe the same thing is happening to you.

Good Luck,

Styles

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

29 AA - 2.77BB per