What's my action?

[Joe Tall]

$22 Rebuy tournament tonight. Top 36 pay, 78 or so left.

Can I push here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Level 400/800 with a T50 ante.

<font color="red"> Joe Tall (t10325)</font>
UTG (t14370)
UTG+1 (t29984)
<font color="red"> MP1 (t32850) </font>
<font color="red"> MP2 (t47897) </font>
MP3 (t16070)
CO (t12701)
Button (t26199)
SB (t21290)

Preflop: Joe Tall is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t2400</font>, <font color="red"> MP2 calls t2400 </font> , MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Joe Tall..... </font>

Thanks in advance.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[daryn]

good question. in this situation i'd probably toss it. i think i overvalue TT and even JJ too much in nl tourneys. you're not too shortstacked, i might wait for a better opportunity.

[swimfan]

Push. You're shortstacked at the table and have 13 BB. 2400 isn't too much for MP2 to cold call relative to his stack, so I may not read too much into his hand. If you get it heads up, enough overlay to make a 50-50 worthwhile; and I would think it's about even a caller would have JJ+ or 99-. Plus, your stack is formidable enough to take the pot right there. I would make a stand at this point in the tourney and given your stack relative to the table.

[DOTTT]

Any reads on the players involved? What kind of hands has mp raised with before?

[TimTimSalabim]

No way I'm moving allin here with TT when two guys who already have money in the pot can bust me at small risk to themselves. Why gamble at this point? You're not that desperate yet. Fold. The other possibility is to call and hope to flop a set, but I'd tend towards folding.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Do you have a sense what range of hands MP2 will call a 3x BB open raise with? Since I close the action here, there are 4 overcards, and I get to act 1st post-flop, I'd rather call and push if no overcard flop than push now and worry about getting into a coinflip situation, especially against stack sizes that are more likely to call with AJ or KQ.

The question is: Do you want to go to war with TT here?

[superleeds]

I'd call. And hope to flop a set. It's costing a further T1600 into a T5600 pot so obviously your odds aren't good but your closing the action and if you do flop a set you should hopefully get a call from one of the bigger stacks.

I don't think all-in is a good move. In my opinion you are resting your tournament on at best a coin flip. It's true the initial raiser could be trying to buy the pot but is the caller gonna call without at least a big Ace. They may both be on small pairs in which case they may both fold to an all-in reraise but without reasonable reads that they will lay down marginal hands I think I would rather fold than go all-in.

Calling and missing would still leave you enough money for a couple of orbits. I take the chance and gamble

If you hit the set, check and hope to be bet into. If flop comes 9 high go all-in.

[CrackerZack]

I tend to push here, and its why i'm bad at NL. Their stacks are too deep to fold things like AQ, etc. I like Kurn's plan personally. Been working on your tourney game? I've more posts in here from you. I'm reading a bunch of stuff in here hoping to improve and qualify for the WSOP but I think I'm better off hoping for dumb luck. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SossMan]

This is a pretty good one, Joe.
This situation comes up often at this stage in a NL Tourney.

My vote is to call. You have huge implied odds to more than double up if you hit your set. I would push if the flop comes all 9s or lower. I would essentially be done with the hand if an overcard comes and there is any appreciable action.
I'm not a huge fan of a push here, but I don't think it would be horrible. If I was playing against world champions, I would tend to push here. If I felt like I was one of the top 2 at the table, I would call and hope the flop comes A T x, or x x x.
A fold would be pretty weak-tight.

If you call and the flop comes overcards, you still have a workable stack.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'd call. And hope to flop a set.

I tend to think that if the only reason you're calling is for set value, folding is a better option. The call is more than 17% of your stack, too much for a 7.5 - 1 shot.

My suggestion was to call and 1) push all-in on the flop if there is no overcard (or maybe if the only overcard is a J or a pair of Js); 2) check a Q-high flop, and if the original bettor bets and the first caller folds, consider an all-in check-raise if you have a level of confidence that the beoor would play AK like that; or 3) check and trap if you do flop a set.

The preflop call with the intention of going all-in simply takes some of the risk of pushing preflop out of the picture. Either of these stacks will likely call you with Ax, and if both call, you potentially have 3 overcards out against you. If the cold-caller would call with middle pairs, then pushing if no A or K flops is also reasonable.

If my stack size was a little bigger, I might be more inclined to fold preflop, as I prefer this play with QQ or JJ. TT just has too many possible overcard flops. But with less than 12 BB remaining, it's time to gamble a bit more.

[Aloysius]

Great question.

I think with the caller in-between, and their stack sizes, it's tough to push. Is anyone else alarmed by MP2's pre-flop call? MP2 knows he's tangling with the other big stack, I'd probably put him on a pretty big hand.

At best you're probably a heads-up coin-flip (maybe 70/30 against just one overcard). If that's a situation you don't mind then I'd push (e.g. if you considered yourself an average player in the tourney that needed to gamble somewhat). I'd probably fold because I've still got 13xBB and far away from the money, though from reading the previous posts it seems as if calling isn't a bad idea.

Quick additional question - If MP2 doesn't call the pre-flop raise, and it's heads-up, with pocket 10s do you push all-in or "stop n pop"? (Is this a no-brainer push?)

[Mackie]

Good question. You can make an argument for any of the three options. I guess it depends on what your impressions of MP1 and MP2 are. If you think MP1 has been raising too many hands pre-flop and MP2 is also loose, pushing in has a reasonable chance of winning the pot right there, do it.
If they're tighter I'd lean towards a flat call, because if one of them has AK they will surely call your all-in bet.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to think that if the only reason you're calling is for set value, folding is a better option. The call is more than 17% of your stack, too much for a 7.5 - 1 shot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here's how I see the implied odds situation: It costs you T1600 to call, so you need to earn T12000 to make it worth it, based on the 7.5 to 1 against flopping a set. There's already T6050 in the pot (if I counted right), so you need to earn another T6000 after you flop your set. I think it's doable, although a lot depends on how loose the other two players are and how good you are at extracting their money.

[fsuplayer]

Unless you can put one of the two on a higher PP, which you cant, I would call and look for a set or overpair.

Does anyone know what the odds of flopping a set/or overpair with 1010?
I dont know the odds myself, but I bet they are pretty close to getting the pot odds needed. Plus, you can most likely CR and trap them for more chips if one of the above happens.

I vote call.

FsuPlayer

[Mike Gallo]

Fold.

If you call your out of position for the rest of the hand.

I do not like to reraise all in in this spot.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.

If you call your out of position for the rest of the hand.

I do not like to reraise all in in this spot.



[/ QUOTE ]

But he's in a spot where it looks perfectly natural for him to check the flop, no matter what. He's either check-folding or check raising the flop. It's a hit or miss situation. It is much harder to play AK out of position than this particular hand.

[berya]

I would fold. I would call if my stack was bigger. Would push all-in only if I thought there was a very very good chance both of them do not have much at all.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'm not saying it isn't doable, but to say I'm calling and I'm gone if I don't flop my set is leaving money on the table.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If you call your out of position for the rest of the hand.

But if you call and no A or K flops, isn't acting 1st an advantage? My opinion here is based a great deal on the exact stack sizes. A bit smaller and I push pre-flop. About 50% - 100% bigger I probably fold preflop, much bigger, I may call for set value alone.

At the stack sizes we have here and at the point he's at in the tournament, there's too many chips in the pot to not make a play for them, and the stop-and-go type play looks right for this set of circumstances.

[superleeds]

I agree 100%. I edited my post to say go all-in if the flop comes 9 high. I'm not calling wholly for a set to flop but also for the chance the flop may be favorable in other ways

[Joe Tall]

what range of hands MP2 will call a 3x BB open raise with

When I switched to this table, MP2 was the chip leader by 20k w/a stack of 60k plus. MP1 doubled through him to get to where he is now as MP2 was playing obsurdly loose w/his big stack.

MP1 hand not played another hand in the 3-levels of blinds that was not out of line. He was the one I re-raised w/AK and folded saying "KQs is no good here" in a post at the bottom of the page here. He played the hand he doubled up on extemely well getting MP1 to try to buy the pot when he held QQ as an overpair on a Txx flop.

Does MP2 possible looseness and MP1's 'respectable-ness' change anything now to your response?

Thanks Kurn,
Joe

[swimfan]

I definitely agree with your line of thought throughout your posts.

A few questions for you, if you don't mind my asking...

-Do you feel the stop and go is as effective with two players?

-Given MP1 is out of position against MP2 if JoeTall pushes, is 6450T enough overlay if you feel confident you will drive one of the two players out?

-Or as a tactic, if you read MP1 may be ahead but fold a strong hand, and MP2 may be more of calling station?

I like pushing here because I feel I'll get it heads up, and think it's enough overlay to justify a race. Additionally, I think I play better with a bigger stack going into the bubble stages. But I definitely agree with you that if I have a moderate stack, I'd fold here, and I would call with a big stack.

I also think JoeTall's hand is a great hand to use game theory for with reads.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you feel the stop and go is as effective with two players?



[/ QUOTE ]

Technically, this isn't really a stop and go. A true stop and go plan would entail going all in on ANY flop. If the flop comes A K 2...I'm pretty sure he's not going all in.

This play is a modified Stop N Go. It's go all in if you have an overpair or trap if you flop a set and be done with the hand if there is an overcard.
This is very effective against two players because you can't really get yourself into much trouble unless one of them has JJ-AA and the flop comes all less than ten.

It's weird, but being in 1st position allows you to steal the pot on an all low flop. If the hero was in last position and the raiser had AK, the raiser may pot commit himself with a flop bet, and you may get in a spot where you have to sweat a turn and river.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I got into a jam last night early in a SNG satellite (2-table) with TT. I was close to chip leader at the table with 3020 (15/30 blinds). I limped in MP with one LP caller, the SB raised to 120. I called and the other limper called. The flop came 6-6-2 rainbow and the SB bet out 270. Now I'm trapped between SB representing an overpair which he probably doesn't have 3/4 of the time, but the limper behind me is the problem. He could have called the raise with Axs or a pair 77-JJ. But at this point I'm not in control and decide not to risk my current chip position guessing at 2 players and fold. As it turns out, LP calls the bet, an overcard to the board falls on the turn, SB pushes in and after thinking, LP calls. To my annoyance, SB has A8s and LP has 77. Ugh.

Oh, yeah, and that overcard to the board on the turn. It was a T. Double ugh. I went on to get the booby prize (2nd - a bit more than your buy-in back).

C'est la vie.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Does MP2 possible looseness and MP1's 'respectable-ness' change anything now to your response?

It does open up the range of hands both might be playing, which definitely opens the small possibility of you getting called in 2 places and maybe facing 3 or 4 overcards if you push preflop. If I push with QQ-TT and get called in 2 places I start hoping they both have AK /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Again, I think you're in a situation where you need to make things happen, so it's worth calling preflop and letting the flop determine your play. You're better off acting first here after you call. The worst place to be is in the middle.

[Mike Gallo]

But if you call and no A or K flops, isn't acting 1st an advantage?

Yes, unless someone has Jacks or Queens. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I do like your line though, calling the raise and then decide what to do based on the flop.

[Joe Tall]

My first reaction was to call. Then I put a quick thought into what MP2 would do and what he could be holding so, I tried to take the pot down right there.

I pushed in.

MP1 re-raised, MP2 folded and MP1 showed AK.

The flop was J93
Turn 8

River: A and I'm out 72nd. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Thank you all for your responses. I'll try to find more interesting hands like this.

I like Kurn's line, however, I'm sure MP1 would fold AK on the J-high flop but MP2 was likely to make me decide for all my chips or even hold a hand like QJo.

Thanks again,
Joe Tall