So I want to be a poker player... (long)

[carlosblack]

I have been lurking arround the site for a few months, ever since a "home" game developped at the office. I don't go into anything half heartedly so when I decided to give poker a go I looked for the best information on the net. After a lot of false leads I found something I did not expect, the 2+2 forums! I have never seen anything like it, I have been overwhelmed about the information and sharing in these forums. I really appreciate the fact that serious players take the time to read posts like this, and I just can't get enough of the posts with hand examples.

Goals:
1)Start playing internet poker: Started two days ago
2)Start playing "home" game: plan to start in 3-5 months
3)Start playing mid limit poker: plan to start in ~3 years

I have a rough "game plan" to achieve this goals, looking for ideas, suggestions and corrections.

My poker background: none, I have always known how to play draw, picked up the rules for hold em about a year ago, never played for money. I have bought and read the two + two books (Hold'em poker, HPFAP, Theory of poker, Tournament poker) and lou kriegers low limit book. I have also bought some related software, turbo hold em and pokertracker.

Goal 1) I started playing in party .5/1 this weekend, I started with 200 bb and I will be putting in up to 200bb/month as necesary whenever I don't have 300bb on hand.

As far as playing I made all of the beginner mistakes that I told myself I would not do:

Started winning arround 30$ and got smug(mistake 1), went to two tables(mistake 2) then three(3) and relied on very tight opening hands to bring in the money(4?). Soon I was up about 60$ and I went to four tables(5), when the smoke cleared (or in this case the "you have options" messages cleared) I had lost half of my winnings and made some of the most absurd plays, threw eight dolars away on unimproved Aces when a flopped set kept betting into me for example. I switched back to one table and decided to win back what I had lost(6) I tightened up for a while but I was "not getting any cards"(7 starting to tilt), marginal hands started looking better. Started playing any suited ace, any pair, any suited connector in any position trying to hit the flop(8). I finally decided to quit after (9!) yelling at my wife for talking to me during a hand, have to choose my battles <g>. Fortunatelly I never got into the red, if I had I would probably have tilted a lot worse. Suggestions (aside from not playing four tables again any time soon)?

Goal 2) the "home" game is a two table tournament with little money and high bragging rights. Mostly weak tight players with a few tight agressive and lags, blinds that double every fifteen minutes with the whole thing over in two hours. I want to win it, suggestions?

Goal 3)I have no idea how to do this, I first thought about building a bankroll on lower limits and keep trying to climb up as I get to 300bb for next limit, but if this was easy everybody would do it. I could bankroll the 300bb on 15/30, but how would I know I am ready for this limit? I am in no hurry to get there, suggestions?

I will start posting hands in the microlimit forum this week. Thanks for reading this far and say hello if you see me on party!

[Mike Gallo]

Welcome aboard and congrats on the first step.

Play post and read everything on these boards, you will come out ahead of 80% of most poker players.

[thirddan]

welcome to the boards

I would suggest like MG said to read every hand from the micro forum to start with, hang out there, we are really cool

Working your way throught the limits is the best approach if you want to become successful IMO...playing micros is a very patience/discipline game but it is necessary to start with the basics before jumping in limits with better opponents...will look forward to your micro posts...

[Ed Miller]

I had lost half of my winnings and made some of the most absurd plays, threw eight dolars away on unimproved Aces when a flopped set kept betting into me for example.

This is almost never an "absurd" play. If you NEVER folded pocket aces EVER in these small limit online games, you would be damn close to correct.

Many people seem to think learning to lay down big hands is the key to playing winning poker, but it REALLY ISN'T... I PROMISE. Especially not on small stakes online games where people play like nutcrackers. When they will happily cold-bluff to the river with jack-high, you just can't go around folding pocket aces for one bet.

[jdl22]

[ QUOTE ]
Started playing any suited ace, any pair, any suited connector in any position trying to hit the flop(8).

[/ QUOTE ]

While Ed is the resident expert on these games (in case you are unaware he is writing the most anticipated book since the Gutenberg bible) I don't think playing any suited ace and any pocket pair is much of a mistake if any at all. If the table is passive (little raising) and loose (lots of limpers) then you can play these up front and simply drop them if you don't hit a flush draw or two pair with Axs or a set with your pocket pair.

If I'm wrong here feel free to correct me. I have mainly played NL where implied odds are more important and it is acceptable to play 22 utg.

[ericd]

I think 95% might be right. It's just making sure to sidestep the others.

[Mike Gallo]

I think 95% might be right. It's just making sure to sidestep the others.

Lately with the influx of new posters I agree.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
1)Start playing internet poker: Started two days ago

[/ QUOTE ]
My only advice would be to pick one strategy and study it. Reading 4 different books is probably information overload, especially since a lot of the information in those books doesn't really apply to 50/1 on party. Study the low-limit book, or find a guru on this forum and follow their advice to the letter. You can then study the other books as you move up levels.


[ QUOTE ]
2)Start playing "home" game: plan to start in 3-5 months

[/ QUOTE ]
As for winning a 2-hour, 2-table tournament....a tournament that short is basically a crapshoot. The blinds will be going up so fast, it will just come down to who gets the cards at the end. You can practice at the party 5/1 or 10/1, but it will just come down to getting the cards. If you want to increase your chances, you need to lengthen the tournament. We play 4-5 hours, no one gets bored, and the best players usually make the money.

[ QUOTE ]
3)Start playing mid limit poker: plan to start in ~3 years

[/ QUOTE ]
Search the archives for posts on moving up in limits. I think 300bb is too much when moving up limits. Many people will adopt a plan like "move up when I have 200bb, but drop back down if my backroll drops below 120bb". Again, search the archives. Personally, I don't see a huge difference between 50/1, 1/2, and 2/4. You are wasting your time if you don't move up ASAP through these lower levels.

[Saborion]

Welcome aboard. One advice is that you find an affiliate for some site and sign up through him/her. My recommendation would be Empire since you already have an account on Party. In the long run, this will add up to a lot of extra $$, and that is always nice when you're trying to build a bankroll.

[lostinthought]

In regards to number 3 -
I think you will be able to get there sooner then that, depending on how much time and energy you spend. Also, if you get good advice early on (from places like here) it will accelerate the learning process. I played for about half a year before I started reading this forum.. Looking at my results, that was the point I started playing much better.

You'll want to move up as fast as you comfortably can, as the rake can be killer at low limits. The only reason that low limit play online is profitable is because there are so many bad players going to far with hands.. (combined with the ability to multi-table)..

Learn how to play one table first.

good luck, and welcome to the forums..

[carlosblack]

thanks for the warm welcome. I would not have considered poker without the 2+2 forums, the information in these forums is incredible but it is the hand analysis posts that were the eye opener for me. Once I realized that this was a game of skill I was sold.

[carlosblack]

I had no intention of folding aces, I think the problem is that I still don't quite speak the language of the forum.

My overall style of play is tight pre flop then maniac/callingstation post flop <g>. (I can't wait for your book to come out btw)

What hurts looking at the history of this hand is that I capped flop and turn before realizing the pre-flop limper betting into me might have caught something. I lost 8$ on it in the .5/1, that means that I bet preflop, capped flop and turn, then called a bet on the river, auch.

[carlosblack]

Thanks for the feedback, any suggestion on guru? <g>

I was afraid that the "home" game may not be beatable, with blinds going up so fast if you don't win a pot in the first half an hour you are out. That impression started to change when I was reading Tournament poker for advanced players, especially considering that most of the players in this game play very little poker.

I should have known the "moving up in limit" idea was not new, I will search the forums.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Guru? Ed, of course!

You can click on any user's name and there's an option to "Show All User's Posts". Here my favorite...
Why you guys aren't crushing the microlimits (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=462860)

[pretender2k]

Beyond all the technical help, one of the best peices of advide I got here is about taking breaks. I don't know how often you are planning on playing, but I play on a daily basis and used to play sessions as long as 6 or 8 hours. Now everyone is different but I have found that reguardless of how many hours I play any one day taking a break of 20 to 30 mins every two to two and a half hours really helps. I get out of the current game, get away from the computer, take a walk or do some dishes (anything to break the tought process) and then go back to a new game fresh. About the only time I break this rule anymore is when i am absolutely crushing the game. Just something that helped me take it or leave it.

[MicroBob]

yeah...that ed miller post was one of my faves also.

carlos - you went through your own personal tilt-episode. learn to recognize it, control it, avoid it...whatever...but do what you can to prevent it from happening again.

if you're getting upset at all...then take a break. if you know you are playing bad hands, or taking them too far....take a break.

and for crying out loud...don't take it out on the wife...it's not her damn fault you're not catching any cards!!


poker is as much a game against yourself as it is against the other players/fish at the table.
i suspect a majority of the players on these forums are familiar with a time when they were their own worst enemy. this is the major challenge.

while i haven't read these books yet....many would recommend 'Psychology of Poker' and 'Inside the Poker Mind'.
i am fairly certain that the topic of tilt: what causes it, how to avoid it...etc....are central themes.

also, the psychology forum is a good place to read threads that seem very similar to your tilt episode so check out some of the posts over there.


and yes, you need to slow down and just focus on one or two tables at a time....it sounds like the speed and crazyness of trying to tackle 4-tables at once might have got your adrenaline going a little bit and may have been a factor for the tilt you went through.


and yes, just reading the HH's and participating in the ML and SS forums should reinforce the kind of ideas it takes to play solid, aggressive poker.


15 months ago i had absolutely ZERO idea how to play Hold-em and couldn't remember if a full-house was better than a flush or vice-versa.
certainly didn't know how tournaments worked (this was pre-World Poker Tour on TV) and didn't know the meaning of phrases like Nuts, Muck, Turn, UnderTheGun, etc.
i'm not a great player by any stretch...but i am now winning reasonably consistently at 2/4 and will be looking to move up to 3/6 at some point....although i am comfortable just bringing in the dough at 2/4 for now.

you are already ahead of me by a few months by having found these forums, purchasing the right books, and knowing that tight play brings home the dough (took me a few buy-in's to figure that out).

point is, it can be done.

if you study the material that is on the ML and SS forums you should improve rapidly.
you seem to have a solid, healthy attitude about how to approach this (although perhaps a bit gung-ho for just getting started) and if you stay disciplined it'll come together.

[Nick B.]

A lot of people gave good advice to a beginner in a thread call The Newbie Chronicles, unfortunately the author didn't listen. link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=begin&Number=157256&Forum= All_Forums&Words=mdlm&Match=Username&Searchpage=0& Limit=10000&Old=allposts&Main=157256&Search=true#P ost157256)

[Fitz]

You are definitely on the right track. The advice on this forum is invaluable. You have also started with some excellent reading material.

I would add some of my own advice; I'm sure others will offer their own opinions. First, keep studying your reading material. There is a tremedous amount of information in the books you mentioned, and it is impossible to assimilate all of it in one or two readings. Think of these as reference books. As you read specific sections, try to relate the material to situations you have seen at the table.

As you play on Party Poker, don't try to get cute with exotic moves and bluffs. The best way to beat that game is to play solid tight aggressive poker. Don't enter pots with sub-standard hands; don't cold call a lot of raises. Punish the chasers when you have the best of it. I just finished a session at 3/6 where I only won a few small pots and one 35BB. I flopped a nut straight, and 4 player chased me to the river.

Please remember this. From this moment forward look at all the poker you play as one long session. If you do this, and keep good records, you will be able to control your losses. You will also be able to see when adjustments to you game need to be made. Most importantly, this type of approach can keep you from digging a giant hole in a single night chasing previous losses. I don't know how many times I've seen a player get whacked trying to get to an even number, "One more pot will put me over a grand... etc". There is no shame is quitting at 998.00. There will be plenty of games there tomorrow or the next day.

Keep a sufficent bankroll for the limit you play, approximately 300BB. Protect your bankroll; it is the only thing standing between you and the rail.

Good luck,

Fitz

[Little Fishy]

All I have to say about your tilt system, is Buy in Buy Out play has "buy out" in it for a reason. Whenever I start going on tilt, i like buying out of a table, and really looking at my game. I'm still not great, but it's help a ton, not only with finding flaws in my play, but also with building up my control.
Another note: I've lost a good amount of money trying to play fancier than I had to. Poker is about $ and winning it, don't try fancy stuff against players who you can beat with the plain and simple. I got into the habbit of doing this once, and went on a decent tilt, then I happened across Sklansky's '8 Mistakes of Poker'essay (it's on this website!!) and it really helped me recover my game. If you have 10-15 minutes, I strongly suggest reading it, it helps put the game in perspective.

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]

What hurts looking at the history of this hand is that I capped flop and turn before realizing the pre-flop limper betting into me might have caught something. I lost 8$ on it in the .5/1, that means that I bet preflop, capped flop and turn, then called a bet on the river, auch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming the flop was uncoordinated, most of us here would have capped the flop, and raised the turn. Your opponent's 3-bet here would have slowed us down, but we would have only saved 1 bet compared to your play. Don't sweat it, these kinds of hands happen.

BTW, These types of swings happen. One of the hardest concepts for many beginners to grasp is "It's one long session." Any of us here can play our A+ game and be up or down repeatedly in any given session. If you play an hour on one table - go up 60BB in the first 30 minutes, then bleed back 55BB (while playing solidly) over the next to end up +5BB for the session - that's right where you're supposed to be after an hour. <Generalization, don't everyone freak about this comment, please>

You picked the right place to start. Just lurking here turned me from a loser to a winner in 6 months.

[carlosblack]

MicroBob, that is a terrific post. I don't think I am ready for psychology books, still trying to digest what I have.

I have been doing strictly one or two boards at a time, have not gone on tilt since that one time and done a lot of taking breaks <g> haven't won much though but it is a start.

Week 3 Stats:
Total Hands 1720, VoIp 17.15, VoPSB 27.67, SbFold 80%, BBFold 33.33% Steal 17.65, WSF 30.89% Ammount won 35.28, BB/100 2.05, SD 41.88%, Won at SD 45%, PF Raise 6.98%

[carlosblack]

Thanks for the reasurance, yes I should definitelly have slowed down. The problem is not that I failed to see it, it is a recurrent issue. Here is another hand that shows this problem:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls.

River: (15.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23.75 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 23.75 BB, between Hero and Button.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Button (23.75 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Qs Jd (straight, ace high).
Button shows Ah As (full house, aces full of tens).
Outcome: Button wins 23.75 BB. </font>

Week 3 Stats:
Total Hands 1720, VoIp 17.15, VoPSB 27.67, SbFold 80%, BBFold 33.33% Steal 17.65, WSF 30.89% Ammount won 35.28, BB/100 2.05, SD 41.88%, Won at SD 45%, PF Raise 6.98%

[carlosblack]

I could not access the link, but that is exactly the type of thing I am looking for.

How can I post links from one twoplustwo post to another?
Thanks,

Week 3 Stats:
Total Hands 1720, VoIp 17.15, VoPSB 27.67, SbFold 80%, BBFold 33.33% Steal 17.65, WSF 30.89% Ammount won 35.28, BB/100 2.05, SD 41.88%, Won at SD 45%, PF Raise 6.98%

[carlosblack]

&gt;/.../chasing previous losses
WOW, that was an eye opener. Most of my play sessions I sit down with 2 50$ stacks and carefully monitor their increase/decrease ratio. Whenever one of them hits the thirty something range I start feeling some catch up urges. Your post helps tremendously!

Week 3 Stats:
Total Hands 1720, VoIp 17.15, VoPSB 27.67, SbFold 80%, BBFold 33.33% Steal 17.65, WSF 30.89% Ammount won 35.28, BB/100 2.05, SD 41.88%, Won at SD 45%, PF Raise 6.98%

[carlosblack]

Do you have a link or help on how to find that poker essay? I really would like to read it a few hundred times... &lt;g&gt;

Week 3 Stats:
Total Hands 1720, VoIp 17.15, VoPSB 27.67, SbFold 80%, BBFold 33.33% Steal 17.65, WSF 30.89% Ammount won 35.28, BB/100 2.05, SD 41.88%, Won at SD 45%, PF Raise 6.98%

[bernie]

Dont try to learn the game in a weekend or a month.

My suggestion: Concentrate on starting hands and basic flop play. Id buy turbo and work on your starting hands on that til it's 2nd nature. I did this. It saved me a ton of cash. It really shouldnt cost you anything to learn starting hands with what's available on the markets.

Focus on 1 street at a time. One thing that's good about many books is that they are split up in this way.

Deal with the swings later. Remember, early on you may go on a nice run and it will seem easy. The reverse swing is always due to happen and it can be devastating if not prepared for it. We see posts like this all the time on here about how easy it is and we dont know anything, the poster knows more than us because he's only played for 100 hours and has won 250BB, blah, blah. Then we hardly ever hear from them after their 5th post. Try not to fall into that trap should it present itself.

It sounds like you want to give it a go. Do it. You're way ahead of most opponents you will face just by joining this forum alone. Lots of great [censored] on here to make you think of all aspects of the game.

Here's hoping you're around for awhile.

b

ps. I cant end it without my description of how your first real bad run will feel. Have a buddy take a baseball bat, get a good grip, and hit you full on in the gut. That's about what it feels like. It will happen time after time. Eventually, you either get stronger abs, or you end up curled on the ground in the fetal position doubting your very existence.

Great game, isn't it?

I just got hit with an aluminum bat last month. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Greg J]

I know I'm somewhat of a rookie still, but I actually know somewhat what you are talking about. My first time out ever in a B&amp;M I cleaned up, and thought I was Matt Damon in Rounders. My next four subsequent visits to the Casino put me back on earth.

[BreakEvenPlayer]

carlos you played this hand damn well

[Little Fishy]

Go to the Essay portion of www.twoplustwo.com (http://www.twoplustwo.com), the essay is called "The Eight Mistakes of Poker" by David Sklansky. It's aslo found in his book Getting the Best of It.