Over-Aggro... but how Over-Aggro?

[sthief09]

The calling station routinely called bets and raises with nothing. He rarely folded before or even on the river. He raised a grand total of 0 hands.

Weak-tight raised a fair amount preflop, but he was so easy to push off his hand. Many times he'd raise or 3-bet preflop, then fold on the flop to a check-raise, or fold the turn after being check-raised. I felt that he had decent standards based on the hands he showed down, but he was probably playing at a level higher than he's used to, so was timid post-flop.

Given these reads, how was my line? Afterwards, I felt as though I played the hand poorly, but I can't think of a better line against these opponents.

Hand converter is down, so I'll type it out.
Party Poker 10/20 (6-max, 6 handed)

Hero is UTG with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero raises, Calling Station calls, CO folds, Weak-Tight 3-bets, SB fold, BB folds, Hero calls, Calling station calls.

Flop (10.5 SB)- [ 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J /images/graemlins/club.gif ] (3 players)
Hero checks, Calling Station checks, Weak-tight bets, Hero raises, Calling Station calls, Weak-tight calls.

<font color="red"> I check-raised, hoping to push Weak-tight off better overcards. When he failed to 3-bet, I knew he didn't have a AJ or overpair. Calling Station cold-calling meant nothing to me. I felt there was greater than a 50% chance I had a better hand than him. I put him on Ax, so A5, A7, AJ, AQ, AK beat me and the rest don't. </font>

Turn (8.25 BB)- [7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] (3 players)
Hero bets, Calling Station calls, Weak-tight calls.

<font color="red"> I bet to make weak-tight fold. When he didn't fold I put him on 88-TT. </font>

River (11.25 BB)- [T /images/graemlins/spade.gif] (3 players)
Hero bets, Calling Station calls, Weak-tight calls.

<font color="red"> Easy value bet. </font>

Comments?

[brandell]

folding pre-flop is a good option

i dont like your line much but maybe i am suffering from not wanting to play this hand

it looks too much to want to bluff your way through 2 guys from the front - presumably the weak tight guy has something resembling a hand and with lots of cash in the pot given the presence of the chook in the middle i struggle to accept it will be easy to push him off a typical hand for his pre-flop 3 bet

you clean up chooks primarily by having them call a lot when your in front - bluffing them isnt a good plan

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
folding pre-flop is a good option

[/ QUOTE ]


you really don't raise ATo UTG in these? for some reason I thought that was standard. I trust your opinion as much as anyone's so I guess I have to rethink my UTG strategy.

forget your password again stripsqueez? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Apocalypse]

i don't think raising is standard here, but folding hands like these utg period will give you less future action with toprange hands. I do like my opponents to think im capable of raising these kind of hands utg

[Apocalypse]

when coldcalling station called the turn as well, wouldn't you put him on a low/middle pp or draw or something? I just think you shouldn't rule calling station out of analysis because of being a calling station. And you say 88-TT. Would a weak-tight player reraise 88 preflop? Im not asking these questions retorically by the way, im curious

[Apocalypse]

...because i am by the way /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think raising is standard here, but folding hands like these utg period will give you less future action with toprange hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold this hand UTG in a 6-handed game most all of the time and definitely have no shortage getting excessive action when I have a hand.

[Ulysses]

I don't like much of anything in this hand except for the river bet. A weak-tight guy 3-bet and bet the flop and you have nothing. And are trying to bulldoze your way through him and a calling station - out of position. Ugly.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
folding pre-flop is a good option

[/ QUOTE ]


you really don't raise ATo UTG in these? for some reason I thought that was standard. I trust your opinion as much as anyone's so I guess I have to rethink my UTG strategy.


[/ QUOTE ]

I also typically fold ATo UTG. Position, position, position.
I just checked to verify my PT stats and I see that I've folded it the last six times I've been dealt it UTG, and also, that I am only raising with it roughly 23% of the time PF when UTG. Conversely, ATs is raised almost 100% of the time UTG, and A9s has also been raised close to 21% of the time (this is probably something I need to work on. I play too many ace-suiteds).

[Apocalypse]

interesting...how you feel about AJo and A10s?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
when coldcalling station called the turn as well, wouldn't you put him on a low/middle pp or draw or something? I just think you shouldn't rule calling station out of analysis because of being a calling station. And you say 88-TT. Would a weak-tight player reraise 88 preflop? Im not asking these questions retorically by the way, im curious

[/ QUOTE ]


there was one hand where I got into a raising war with another player (I think I had flopped a set). meanwhile the calling station kept calling and calling. he eventually showed his hand down. he had 83s. he flopped a backdoor flush draw, turned his flush draw, then rivered a pair of 3's and kept calling. that is the type of player he is.

[sthief09]

Weak-tight had 99 and the calling station had AK, so I was drawing to 3 outs, which I caught and MHWG.

This was my last hand at 10/20. After this I just thanked the poker gods for letting me get so lucky after I put in as many bets as possible drawing to 3 outs the whole time, and left the table. I'm clearly not ready to play at that level, especially with a short bankroll. I was fortunate to come out ahead, but because the way I played, my bankroll could've taken a huge hit. Thank you all for your responses.

I found it interesting that ATo is a muck UTG. For some reason, it felt like a standard raise for me, probably due to my lack of experience (only 1k hands at 5/10) in 6-max games. I have a lot of rethinking to do.

I'm going to go through the archives and try to find some good posts that I missed, considering that I'm relatively new to the forums. Are there any must-read threads that any of you can think of? If any of you can just give me some keywords that would help me find certain posts, that would be great.

Thanks again for your help.

[Ulysses]

6-max pre-flop thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=headsup&amp;Number=518462&amp;Foru m=headsup&amp;Words=davidross&amp;Match=Username&amp;Searchpag e=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=3months&amp;Main=518462&amp;Search=true#P ost518462)

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm going to go through the archives and try to find some good posts that I missed, considering that I'm relatively new to the forums. Are there any must-read threads that any of you can think of? If any of you can just give me some keywords that would help me find certain posts, that would be great.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I have more free-time (ie, once school lets out or eases to a halt) I am planning on compiling a listing of 'must read' short handed threads for a friend who I am giving lessons to. I will be sure to publicly post my list of threads.

In the meantime though, if I were you, I would honestly just begin by reading through a lot of Ulysses' posts (heheh, the ones that aren't zero content ones, as titled). The lines he opts to take on hands are always good ones. I especially recall the one that was titled something like "if you're new to shorthanded here is a good example of the amount of aggression needed" (or something of that effect).

[Nate tha' Great]

Matt Clement is a good pitcher. Then again, the Mets also made Sergio Mitre look good.

The preflop raise is fine in a game in which you're not likely to get 3-bet alot (either because of poor table image or very aggressive opponents). In tougher games, you can fold it.

On the flop, I think that line of play is going to cost you chips in the long-run. You're out of position, against two opponents, and have very few leigimate outs. It is very hard to get opponents to fold better hands in these games and it usually requires the combination of a good table image and a coordinated board. I know that you've labelled your opponent as "weak-tight", but there are very few 6-max opponents that I think legimiately meet that description. And this is a spot where your "weak-tight" opponent has played very aggressively and built up a large pot. With a hand like this, you either flop strongly or get out ... if you had the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif then you could also consider calling, but you don't.

In summary, I'd rate the hand as follows:

Preflop: Jay Payton.
Flop: Roger Cedneo.
Turn: Rey Ordonez.
River: John Olerud.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
In summary, I'd rate the hand as follows:

Flop: Roger Cedneo.
Turn: Rey Ordonez.



[/ QUOTE ]

that's brutal... at least I didn't drop down to Rey Sanchez territory /images/graemlins/laugh.gif