Too tight PF? Comment my folds

[hokke]

Since I moved up to Party 1/2 my VP$IP has dropped from 18% (at 0.5/1) to 13,4%. I don't know if it's due to bad cards (only 1700 hands so far) or if I have subconsciously tightened up because of the higher stakes. I've looked through my starting hands for the last 300 games in PT and have found some hands that may be too tight. In these sessions there has been an Average Seen Flop of 37% and approximately 30-40% have been raised preflop. Any comments appreciated.

Hand 1
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Hand 2
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, Hero folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Hand 3
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Hand 4
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $1.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero folds, BB checks.

Hand 5
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Hand 6
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Hand 7
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero folds, Button calls, SB raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Button calls.

[thirddan]

What i would do...

Hand 1: fold
Hand 2: fold
Hand 3: fold
Hand 4: complete
Hand 5: fold
Hand 6: i might raise (depends on table and players in blinds)
Hand 7: raise/fold (probably fold)

[mikeyKay]

hand 1: not too sure, i dont really like Q 10o, and usually like when there is a raise in front of me so i can just dump it and never look back

hand 2: again, not too sure, you know that the guys before that called are going to stay in, but i cant see putting 2 in cold in this spot, you are playing for a flush draw that wont come around too often

hand 3: i think its an easy muck

hand 4: i would probably let this one go also, not enough callers

hand 5: again i dont like Q 10o, so i would prolly muck

hand 6: fold

hand 7: not really sure.

this post is somewhat related to something i have been thinking about lately and i thought about making my own post about...but ill start it here and see if it gets any action. when does folding too many hands preflop start to loose you money? i can see it not really being a problem on the lower levels because when you make a hand, you can usually make a killing, and just fold the marginal hands because they dont pay as well. When do you get to the point where you have to push these marginal hands and folding them winds up hurting you? ive gotten too frustrated and beat with marginal hands to want to play them, so ive started to just get rid of them...will i someday need to put them back in to be sucessful? im guessing that table reads and very specific situations make it a must to push the smaller edges in more advanced games

-mike

[bernie]

Hand 1: QTo
Call. be careful with it.

Hand 2: A4s

Id fold

Hand 3:Q9s

Fold

Hand 4: 43s

easy complete

Hand 5: QTo

Call. be careful with it.

Hand 6: A5s

Raise

Hand 7: KTo

I hate this hand so i fold it. Some may play it. Use extreme caution if you do.

It looks like your playing a little too tight, imo.

b

[ddubois]

I would limp in the CO with A4s after three limpers, but most people on this forum would say I'm too loose.

EDIT: Never mind, I missed the raise in front of you. Folding is fine.

I agree with thirdian, 34s in the SB is your only clear "mistake". The other folds are all reasonable. I wouldn't worry too much about being too tight; it's the reverse that gets you into trouble.

[Trix]

Hand 4 is the only one I consider playing.

btw. QT is trash with more than one limper and it doesnt get better when one of the limpers came in from EP.

[bernie]

Depends on who the limper is in EP.

b

[Nak]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1: QTo
Call. be careful with it.

Hand 2: A4s

Id fold

Hand 3:Q9s

Fold

Hand 4: 43s

easy complete

Hand 5: QTo

Call. be careful with it.

Hand 6: A5s

Raise

Hand 7: KTo

I hate this hand so i fold it. Some may play it. Use extreme caution if you do.

It looks like your playing a little too tight, imo.

b


[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, you did NOT just recommend calling with QTo! I thought that AA was the only hand that we were aloud to play! Wow, you are a MANIAC. I suppose that you are going to suggest something crazy like playing more cautiously on the flop when you play QTo. Oh, you already did. Are you sure you should be posting? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Loosy-goosy Nak.

[bernie]

Do i know you?

Yes, id call with QTo in those spots.

b

[Nak]

Yes, so would I. I was just being sarcastic. I am glad that you recommended it.

Nak

[bernie]

I got the sarcasm. It got a chuckle out of me when i read it. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

b

[StellarWind]

I think you are doing fine with your preflop standards based on these examples. I consider all of these examples to be close decisions which tells me you are thinking about the right hands.

A VP$IP drop is normal when moving up to 1/2. You face more raises and have fewer limpers and less implied odds to excuse your atrocities. A drop from 18% to 13.4% seems excessive but quite likely it's just the small sample size.

I would probably complete with 43s but it is very tight with only two players in front of you. If the poster had voluntarily donated his money that might be enough to reverse my decision. A tight limper would also disturb me. Any hint that BB had an itchy trigger finger would definitely change my mind. Tiny suited one-gaps are really awful in a small field.

I would give Q9s a try with two limpers if I felt safe.

My start chart says open-raise A5s three from the button. I think I need to change that to fold. Too risky because they always make you play the hand.

I experimented once recently with KTo on the button with several limpers. I might do it again. Not ready to try cutoff. Not ready to add it to my chart.

Based on a recent post by Ed Miller I think he might approve the cold call by A4s following three limpers and a field raise. My apologies in advance if he doesn't agree. I wouldn't touch it but I don't play as well as he does.

With all due respect to Bernie, QTo is a piece of junk. But again, he's probably more careful than me.

Let me just finish by commenting that moving up to a new limit is not an ideal time to be pushing the envelope on your starting play. Get comfortable in your new home before you start taking additional risks. If you didn't play these hands at 0.5/1 this is not the time to add them.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably complete with 43s but it is very tight with only two players in front of you. If the poster had voluntarily donated his money that might be enough to reverse my decision. A tight limper would also disturb me. Any hint that BB had an itchy trigger finger would definitely change my mind. Tiny suited one-gaps are really awful in a small field.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 7-1 on the call. If there's a tight limper, he likely doesnt have any of your low card outs. Id play any suited cards here.

[ QUOTE ]
I would give Q9s a try with two limpers if I felt safe.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was in MP, wasnt it? i tend to want alot more callers, hence, later position for this one. But that may be tighter than most would.

[ QUOTE ]
Based on a recent post by Ed Miller I think he might approve the cold call by A4s following three limpers and a field raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

One problem with coldcalling here is that you're the first one to cold call. If you flop a draw, the bettor is on your right. Which hinders your chance to jam the draw for value on the flop and getting any action on it. This also seems like a relativley passive table. So if an A pops and non of your suit is on the flop, you may have to get rid of it. Which can be tough to do with top pair.

[ QUOTE ]
With all due respect to Bernie, QTo is a piece of junk. But again, he's probably more careful than me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Note this is a late position on a passive table. If you can play postflop decently, you should be able to play this here.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me just finish by commenting that moving up to a new limit is not an ideal time to be pushing the envelope on your starting play. Get comfortable in your new home before you start taking additional risks. If you didn't play these hands at 0.5/1 this is not the time to add them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree for the most part here. Along with trying to improve postflop play. To an extent. Some plays become more prevelant the higher you go.

1-2 really isnt that expensive to learn on. But there is alot of pride in a roll that one's built. I know alot of time is invested in it. In that case, i dont see .5-1 playing drastically diffferent than 1-2. So why not just sit on the lower one til one is much more comfortable? There's no rush. You're not going to make lots of cash til you hit around 2-4 or 3-6 anyways. (assuming multi tabling)

There's no need to pay any more than you have to to learn.

b

[flexus]

I would complete the SB in hand 4. The others you are correct to throw in the muck. Dont even think about playing QTo or KTo from any where out of the blinds or a steal position.

[chief444]

Hand 4 is the only one I would consider too tight. You should complete here. Otherwise everything looks fine. I agree with Trix's comments below regarding Q-T off...it is trash. Same with K-T off.

[Ed Miller]

Based on a recent post by Ed Miller I think he might approve the cold call by A4s following three limpers and a field raise. My apologies in advance if he doesn't agree. I wouldn't touch it but I don't play as well as he does.

Generally I would fold. You are one off the button, you are first to act after the raiser, and you have A4s.

In the hand in my quiz, you were on the button... and the raiser raised UTG (I believe), and like four people called, and you have A8s. (Working from memory here.) Also, the raiser (and all of the callers) are denoted big time LAGs.

All the differences add up to you being significantly better off in the hand from my quiz. When you read any example that I write, make sure you examine ALL the facets of the situation. You aren't supposed to read it and say, "Ed thinks it's ok to cold-call a raise with any suited ace as long as a couple people have limped in." There's ALWAYS more to it than that. Look at your relative position. Look at the nature of the raiser. Look at exactly how many people have entered the hand. Look at your position. Look at your hand... A8s and A4s differ significantly in strength.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
A8s and A4s differ significantly in strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the raiser is on your right, which i think is the one we're talking about, im folding A8s here also. It may be overtight, but im not calling here.

b

[MicroBob]

i am trying to search for this quiz...but a link would be helpful if anyone has it.

[StellarWind]

I was hoping you might comment on my post. Actually I was not thinking of the quiz. It was this:

[ QUOTE ]
MajorKong (Ed Miller) 2+2 2/29/04

[ QUOTE ]
Here is an often written statement that I have been struggling with regarding coldcalling. "A good HE player should not be coldcalling 2 bets preflop. Either raise or fold."

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is true in mid-limit games where the play is tighter and the blinds aren't almost competely raked off. In a low-limit game where people play real loose (including relatively loose raising), it is often not the case. If UTG raises, and there are three cold-callers to you on the button, you should call with a wide range of hands including roughly (depending on your opponents' skill):

Any pair
Any two suited ten or higher
Suited Aces (especially the bigger ones... A7s and up maybe)

Of course you should 3-bet for value with your better hands... say AA-99 and AKs/AQs perhaps more if your opponents are very loose.

[/ QUOTE ]
Recently I've wanted to adapt this advice to the situation where the raiser is behind several limpers and I'm next.

The good news is that limp-limp-limp-raise promises less than raise-coldcall-coldcall-coldcall. The bad news is my poor position with respect to the raiser.

So what do I need to coldcall in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

[MicroBob]

(bump)

anyone with a link to this quiz....
man ed miller posts almost as much as i do.
can't seem to find it. sorry i'm a moron.

[bernie]

Start by putting yourself in a 3 bet or fold situation here. What hands would you do that with here?

Then factor in how the players behind you play postflop. Whether theyd likely call 2+ cold on the flop or turn.

b

[Ed Miller]

If the raiser is on your right, which i think is the one we're talking about, im folding A8s here also. It may be overtight, but im not calling here.

I don't think that's overtight. It depends on the players, but in a "typical" game I'd fold.

[Nate tha' Great]

All of your who are saying that the QTo hand is an easy muck are not understanding the importance of position. In a tough game I think you can consider folding it but in a typical game it's a pretty easy call on the Button.

btw, the key thing about playing hands like QTo is *not* playing overly conservatively after the flop. The key consideration is playing *well* after the flop. Sometimes that entails playing conservatively and sometimes it entails playing aggressively.

[bernie]

Nice post.

I want to note that i didnt say play conservatively, but play carefully with it. Primarily when you just flop a pair.

Here's one i played recently:

Bunch of limpers to me on the button or CO.

Flop Q 6 3 rain.

guy on my right opens, i raise, all fold to him, he 3 bets rather quickly, i call.

Turn 8

he bets, i look and figure, saying to him, 'you either have me outkicked, or you have 2 pair with your kicker,' and fold. He shows me KQ. I knew if i said that he'd likely show me his hand.

You have to be able to get away from it when you need to.

b