Party 15/30, every decision seems debatable on this hand

[ZeeJustin]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: ZeeJustin is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, ZeeJustin calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">ZeeJustin bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG folds, ZeeJustin calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">ZeeJustin bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (11 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">ZeeJustin bets</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 13 BB, between ZeeJustin and BB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by ZeeJustin (13 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows 5h Js (two pair, jacks and fives).
ZeeJustin shows Ah Jh (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: ZeeJustin wins 13 BB. </font>

[BreakEvenPlayer]

Well played. Your turn bet tests the waters for a set, the calls here make me pretty sure your hand is best. River Ace seals the deal.

Many would raise PF and three bet the flop, but I don't mind the line you took here. A lot depends on UTG's limp standards.

[astroglide]

i would raise this preflop 100% of the time and lead the flop. i don't understand the failure to threebet the flop and lead the turn, as the only draw out there is 43. somebody raising this flop is bound to have a medium pocket pair or a jack most of the time and will pay you off.

[The Dude]

Raise preflop.

On the flop, I would 3-bet. If I had TPTK w/ AQ, then I would probably just call and go for the check-raise on the turn. I really don't understand your stop-n-go. What's the purpose?

[CrackerZack]

I raise PF with this always. I'd probably 3-bet the flop too, although with little draws out there, maybe a check-raise of the turn with TPTK would be nice.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Well played. Your turn bet tests the waters for a set...

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? Are you folding to a turn raise? If not, then your bet does nothing to 'test the waters for a set' (a ridiculous reason to take this line anyway).

You have to either 3-bet the flop and lead out the turn, or smooth-call then check-raise the turn. I definately go with 3-bet the flop, lead the turn.

[rtrombone]

Raise preflop. When the MP guy raises you it's pretty easy to put him on a worse jack or a pocket pair. After two guys cold-call a strong argument can be made for 3-betting and getting extra value then and there. If you just call, it's to try and check-raise the entire field on the turn. Why stop and go? If you were going to bet the turn you should've 3-bet the flop.

[HiatusOver]

Well now I think I see why you aren't beating this game. You play too tight/passive and or weak/tight. Raise PF definitely, 3-bet the flop. The stop and go on the turn makes no sense to me. What card wouldn't you have bet? If you can't answer that question well then the stop and go is pointless. I really hope you didnt think you might have played this hand correctly

[ZeeJustin]

People assume my hand is good on the flop. When the action goes, bet, raise, cold call 2, cold call 2, I tend to get worried that a pair may not be good enough, especially when there's no str8 or flush draws out there.

Because of that, I didn't quite think my hand was good enough for a turn check raise. What do I do if I get 3 bet? Also, the flop raisor was acting right after me. He may raise and knock out 2 players, or put them in a situation to make an awful call. I was really hoping to get raised again on the turn. It seems like getting raised seems like it might be better than check raising on this turn.

[Ulysses]

I would raise pre-flop and bet/3-bet the flop as others have suggested. However, if I found myself on the turn in your spot, I would go for a turn checkraise.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
People assume my hand is good on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

people are smart!

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
Your turn bet tests the waters for a set

[/ QUOTE ]

erll u dub;t hink that...sorry, i'm trying to type a response but my eyes are tearing up

[HiatusOver]

Noone said a turn check-raise was the best line...I think basically EVERYONE said that 3-betting the flop was the best plan along with raising pre-flop. If you are going to defend yourself then tell us why you failed to do both of these things

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
I really hope you didnt think you might have played this hand correctly

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly I wouldn't post the hand unless I felt uneasy about it.

[HiatusOver]

I dont think it is clear but ok, you did say every decision seems debatable yet almost every poster has elected to play the hand the same way.

[The Dude]

Your thinking is inconsistent here. If the cold-calls on the flop make you think your hand is no good, then why bet out the turn? Are you going to fold to a raise? I would hope not.

If you think you're ahead of the cold-callers, then why do you feel the inherent need to let the flop raiser push them out on the turn?

[ QUOTE ]
I was really hoping to get raised again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless you think you're getting raised by a worse hand and the cold-caller will fold a better hand (or call with a worse hand), then why are you hoping to get raised?

Your stop-n-go virtually gurantees you're going to win the least when you're ahead, and it does nothing to increase your chances of dragging this pot.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
People assume my hand is good on the flop. When the action goes, bet, raise, cold call 2, cold call 2, I tend to get worried that a pair may not be good enough, especially when there's no str8 or flush draws out there.

Because of that, I didn't quite think my hand was good enough for a turn check raise. What do I do if I get 3 bet? Also, the flop raisor was acting right after me. He may raise and knock out 2 players, or put them in a situation to make an awful call. I was really hoping to get raised again on the turn. It seems like getting raised seems like it might be better than check raising on this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why hope to get raised on the turn? A turn raise would worry me a great deal here but I'd hesitate to fold because I didn't 3-bet the turn and the raise could come from KJ or even QJ looking for a free showdown. Notice how much easier it would have been had you raised preflop and 3-bet the flop!

[ZeeJustin]

The worst case scenario of bettting out the turn seems far better than the worst case scenario check raising the turn. I really didn't want to get 3 bet.

BTW, no one has yet mentioned the fact that I was indeed beat on the flop and turn (results oriented, yes i know).

Thanks for the reality checks though, I now think 3 betting the flop and betting the turn is indeed the way to go.

[astroglide]

that's ridiculously results-oriented considering the hands that can beat you: aa kk qq jj 55 33 j5 j3 53. 55 and 33 are the only ones that could be (remotely) expected, but you did allow the blinds to play random cards. if every hand you played you had AJ with a J53 flop and 3 people willing to call 2 bets you'd be a very rich man.

[HiatusOver]

Zee I think we have found out why you aren't beating the full ring games. You are playing too weak/tight. Luckily you are young, go work on it

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
You are playing too weak/tight

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand is played very weakly. That being said, I am far from a weak tight player. I hate to break it to you, but if you've ever played at a table with me, you would probably criticize me for overplaying hands, and making marginal 3 bets preflop.

[HiatusOver]

hmmmm, I have played against you but not very often. I know weak/tight is a huge insult around here and sorry to offend you, but seeing the pokertracker numbers I have from you (8.8 Voluntarily pot $ into pot), the ones you have posted on the site, and the way you navigated your way through this thread I think you are definitely playing too tight. This particular hand was played very weak. That's where I came up with weak/tight, maybe I am wrong...

[Nightwish]

I would normally raise preflop. You need to 3-bet the flop. MP2 almost certainly doesn't have a set cause he'd wait to raise on the turn and he's unlikely to have 2 pair with that board. The only danger is that MP2 has a high pocket pair that he was hoping to limp-reraise with preflop, but that's a very remote possibility. After that you played it fine.