Another underpair vs 3-flush flop hand

Here is another hand with an underpair vs a preflop raiser on a 3-flush flop. We seem to have fun with these.


Average-to-loose 6-12 Mirage game. UTG limps, I limp 2UTG with 4s4h. Everyone folds to the SB, an overaggressive but thinking woman who raises. The BB folds, UTG and I both call. 3 to the flop for 3.5sbs.


Flop: Js 7s 3s. SB checks, UTG checks.


Whats your move and why?

I have 4s4h, flop is Js7s3s and my 2 opponents checked to me.


I bet. I will bet here almost 100% of the time with a spade in my hand. If I had red 4's, I might check.


SB (preflop raiser) checkraised and UTG folded. I then called. 5.5BBs in the pot.


Turn: [Js 7s 3s] 4d. SB checked, I bet, SB checkraised all in. (I didn't notice she was almost all in. Sloppy.) I of course, called.


I flipped over my hand before the river card. She also flipped over and showed QdQh. Her one outer on the river missed and I took it down.


All comments welcome.

Let me try this one:


SB who raised PF checked on a 3-flush board. You have a spade in addition to a small pr and last to act. You bet, and got called. Turn is another spade, or a 4, SB checked, you bet and she folded.


Now to the results.

i check. your bet is expected here, and means nothing. maybe both of them fold and you win a small pot. more likely you get raised by UTG who is trying to trap sb for two bets (since he knows your an aggressive player). sb would most likely call/checkraise her flush (or A of spades on turn).

so i check. now they are thinking "what the hell does he have? monster? nothing? marginal hand?" all possibilities so you can run any thread you like from folding the turn to raising the river to really scare the pants off them."

tom c.

I can see why a bet may be considered, it may drive out a higher spade and create a chance for you to win the pot. And you may indeed have the best hand . . . for now.


I fear the check raise by a made flush, high draw or a J, or wired pair or . . . or . . . But mostly I fear the commitment I would make. What if you get a caller and a spade falls? What if you get check raised? What if the board pairs? I am a low limit player because I don't have a clue as to the answers to these questions. The best way for me to play them is not get involved in the first place.


OneTime

Haven't read the results or other posters yet


First, I dislike your preflop limp. Conditions would have to be very specific to limp here - average to loose table with an overly aggressive player doesn't seem to meet the requirements.


You haven't given us quite enough information on the players. What does the flop check signal from these players given who they are and their impression of you?


Typically (or actually almost always) I am taking control in this situation. I hope to win immediately or take it down on the turn. There is a strong chance my hand is good (given the weakness shown) and if not I might still have outs. At 6.5 to 1 you don't have to win too many of these to make a bet on the flop profitable. Also, note that the two rags on the flop makes a steal more likely as there is really only one legitimate card to pair and straight possibilities have been eliminated.


Given your limited description of the sb I am guessing the flop missed her as I expect an aggressive player to lead at this pot with about anything. However, if she reads you to bet if she checks she has a good chance to get clever on you here.


I don't know enough about UTG to place him on anything.


This hand gets tricky if you bet and get checkraised or if you get called and led into on the turn. If this happens you reads are critical.

I have to think about it a little but I believe you fire on the flop with red fours as well, especially if you believe the checks indicated weakness. If you get calls after the first two players check and you bet, your flush outs go down in value because a check call is a fairly strong indication that another 4 suit is out there that is better than you (although you would have expected either previous player to fire with it but it depends on how well they play). Therefore, there might not be that much different between suited fours and unsuited 4s after the previous checks. Have to sleep on it.


It looks like the sb might have had a good read on you? Hard to tell though as she could just be trying to get all her money in.

Wow, this is tough.


If you take a free card here, the pot becomes very small on the turn and you could face a bet and a raise and not be able to take your draw to the river. Better to fire a bet here and entice the sb to do what she does most/best and pressure UTG to fold. If UTG had anything, he should have bet into you, hoping for the same. Hell, there's always a chance they will both fold!


Once headsup with the sb, you can call her down or take free cards as appropriate. If you get flop callers, and someone bets into you on a blank turn card, you are done.


I would not be too reliant on my 4's as there are 2 overcards on the board now more overcards to come.

I have 4s4h, flop is Js7s3s and my 2 opponents checked to me.


I bet. I will bet here almost 100% of the time with a spade in my hand. If I had red 4's, I might check.


This is backwards, unless you mean checking intending to fold with the red 4's(unless you hit the 4c obviously). A free card does the red Fours very little good, with likely one out. However, it could hurt them very much.


If your opponent will raise with top pair,overpair, pair plus flush kicker, or a flush on the flop, your red Fours are basically dead and only have to fold vs. any action.


When you bet the fours with a spade, you will have to call a flop raise(like you did). If he has top pair, etc. you may have flush outs.


It is much more important that one of your pocket pair be of the flush suit when calling in a big pot. Betting is different.

The thing is that 3-ways I am willing to fold for a single bet with red 4's. Headsup I check and induce a bluff, but 3-ways, I don't think there is any reason to bet since I likely fold to a checkraise that may or may not indicate I am beaten. I think its better to take the checkraise away from the SB, let her bet the turn, then see what UTG does before I decide if I am beat or not. But with the spade, I really don't mind if she makes it headsup since I likely have her one way or the other and I'd like to get that 3rd person out of the hand to maximize that possibility.

Your willing to pay two bets to knock out the bb so you can take your lowly 4,4 and a weak draw up against a suspected higher pair or two overcards with the real possibility of sb having a higher flush draw?


Is she checkraises, why do you think you have her one way or the other? She is not likely checkraising without a bigger pair or better draw unless she thinks she can push both you and the bb off.


You bet here to pick up the pot and hope you don't get checkraised. If you are sure you are going to get checkraised I think you absolutely check the flop with either 4,4 hand.


The only real difference between the two hands is when you think your bet will be called:


High Chance of steal: Bet both (or any two cards)

High Chance of checkraise: check

High chance of call: Likely check?


Also, why get the bb out? The bb is probably going nowhere with a better draw, except for maybe some middle flush cards. If the BB is not on a draw you don't care if they stay because you probably need a flush to win.


6.5 odds isn't enough for red 4,4 flop bet?

I probably shouldn't have said backwards because I think your flop bet with the pocket Fours and the four-flush is clearly correct, probably even solely based on the chances you will pick up the pot.


The thing is that 3-ways I am willing to fold for a single bet with the (non-spade) 4's.


Me too, but once it is checked to me, I will bet.

I don't want to give any free cards to overcards(to my 4's) that can't call on the flop without a spade. I am betting because I feel my chances of being best justify not giving a free card. A bet might even fold a small spade with a weak sidecard. I have almost no chance to improve. I really just want to pick up the pot, even with the "best hand".


3-ways, I don't think there is any reason to bet since I likely fold to a checkraise that may or may not indicate I am beaten.


You can almost always fold to a checkraise without a spade. Even in the unlikely case they don't have you beat now, they would have:

1) A higher flush draw. AND

2) Two overcards to your 4's.


Giving them ~13 outs and making them almost favorite from the flop on. The pot odds justify calling, in this case but folding would not be a huge mistake, especially since you will usually be nearly dead.

"6.5-1 isn't enough?"


Its close because given how this person had played, it is less likely than normal that she will fold for a single bet. This is partially offset by UTG being pretty weak tight and a flop bet is almost guaranteed to get it down to 2 players. If UTG calls, I can shut down with a clear conscience.


Good points by both yourself and nf.