Flat calling w/small suited connectors/pairs

Here's a dillemma i've been confronted with fairly often and never really knew for sure what the right thing to do is. Say i'm near or on the button and five or six people call the blind and then the person to my right raises. Can I flat call with a midrange suited connector? How about a small suited connector or a pair of deuces for that matter? How many people need to be involved for me to flat call and w/what? I run into this dillemma when i'm in the blind positions as well and am never quite sure how many it takes to flat call the raise from those positions with these types of starting hands.


Any opinions?

I would never cold call a raise with deuces. In your situation, with 5-6 limpers before the raiser, I would call with connectors as low as 4,5s.


If the game is loose and many players are acting in front of you, mid-range connectors are good cards to call with. I only play them if they are suited. To play these, you generally need at least 4 limpers in the pot before you act.


I rarely play suited connectors less than 6,7s from EP. If the table is loose/passive, I would play suited connectors 7,8s and up from EP.

With 5/6 limpers and then a raise, I think I would cold-call with any playable hand (even two deuces).


Careful, its easy to start tilting with this mentality, so make sure to keep tabs on yourself.


Knowing the tendencies of the raiser can help here. For example, if he's the type that rarely raises without a premium pair, your decision becomes more clear.

I've asked that question when i'm sitting UTG in a real loose passive game why not call with 98s? It makes sense to do so under the right circumstances.


So it's never okay to flat call a raise with a pair of deuces? Your probably right, but i would think it would be debatable w/everybody in. I know it would be correct to do it from the blind with sufficient number of callers, although i don't know how many that would be.

Because of the possibility that you would show down your set of deuces while he shows down his set of KK's. Yeah, you would need everybody in the pot to even consider making that call. I agree, good point.

I would call with any pair if I was very very certain that 6 others were going to pay the same amount as me. So in your scenario with 4 limpers and then a raise I would call. If UTG raised and 4 people and the SB called, I would call in the BB with any pair.


KJS

No!


Don't think in terms of set over set. It is too rare to worry about. You call because of the chance that you show down a set of 2s and he shows down a PAIR of Kings. In those cases you will recoup your initial investment and cover the times you call the raise and don't flop a set and fold. You will flop a set about 1 time in 8 so you want about 8 times as much money in the pot as you must invest. Of course, you can count a few extra bets that you are pretty certain to win when you do flop a set, so 6:1 immediate odds is considered enough in these spots because your implied odds are better than 8:1.


KJS

There's a local 'pro' who makes these types of flat calls all the time with even fewer players in the pots. In the past the games here have been very loose and passive and he was able to show good control over these opponents from the flop onwards.


I don't think his tactics are working as well as they used to because some tight aggressive players over whom he has no particular control have been showing up in his games.


When you are making these flat calls, you are giving something up to the players with better hands than you. You must be able to outplay these players--who have better hands than you--after the flop to make these calls +EV.


If you are in doubt, it's easier to just fold. But once you are sure that 5+ players will see the flop and maybe only one of them has a strong hand to begin with, I'd see the flop with a lot of hands so long as I have good position and the players are not very tough.

I could be way off base here...


but I would be more inclined to play any pair rather than the lowest suited connectors in the situation you describe because they are much easier to play. Hit your set or don't, you play or you fold. With small suited connectors, you may flop a draw and have to invest more money past the flop to pursue it.


So cut out the lowest ones. If you played down to 76s (and even that only a portion of the time) I think you'd be fine.

Sorry for not being clear. If I was in the BB, I would play pretty much any pair.


Playing 98s in a very loose/passive game from UTG, IMO, is a good play.

I would never cold call a raise with deuces. In your situation, with 5-6 limpers before the raiser, I would call with connectors as low as 4,5s.


You should be much more willing to cold-call a raise with any pair, even deuces, than with suited connectors.

I agree with your statements on connectors. As long as the pot is big enough, they play great under pressure. Out of position is no big deal.


76s out of position for a raise not a good hand. How passive is the game after the flop? Are the other players tricky? In the SB, you are still making a substantial investment. If you know that you are the best player at the table, you might be able to stay out of trouble and win big pots with this hand. My advice is to save your money in the blinds. Use it for a loose button call.


Why do you want to play suited connectors, even QJs and J10s for a raise? The raiser has told you that he will make later streets expensive. I might play them because it is cheap from the BB. I would do so because I am confident in my ability to get away from losing second place hands. If you are likely to get outplayed post flop, 9-1 BTF is a trap. Read Tommy's posts in the medium stakes form on this subject. Heck, read Tommy no matter what.


Good luck


- Doug

Doug,


Bill S., the original poster, set up the situation as follows: "Say i'm near or on the button and five or six people call the blind and then the person to my right raises." I'm not sure where you get out of position based on this. I said any pair here and medium suited connectors.


Still, you may be right that 76s is too low, even on the button.


You are absolutely right that these are not cards to play if out of position.


Matt

I think I only answered the last part of his question:


"I run into this dillemma when i'm in the blind positions as well and am never quite sure how many it takes to flat call the raise from those positions with these types of starting hands. "


I think that calling raises is a hallmark of losing play while making raises is a hallmark of winning play.


I can think of a few reasons to call with suited connectors. Having the raise immediately to my right hurts. Even with J10s-KQs, I need an especially good reason to call. In some situations, 76s might play better than the bigger cards. However, a person who cold calls a lot of raises just because the cards are suited and close together has made a good step in the direction of negative EV.


If he had said several of the following, I might change my opinion.


1) I play a lot better than my opponents.

2) My opponents tend to pay off, even when they know they are beat.

3) I expect to see a cheap turn when I am drawing.

4) I have great control over the field and I can steal even large pots from them.

5) I have a great read on this table, and I will never go too far with a second place hand.


The bottom line is, it doesn't matter if you have good cards. You want good situations.


- Doug