Mirage 20-40: The Real Thing- AKo, 8-Ways, For 5 Bets Pre-flop

[Dynasty]

The Mirage 20-40 game I was in on Thursday night was absolutely nuts. A couple players were occassionally raising without looking at their cards. 3-betting with K6o was par for the course for one super-maniac.

The hand:

I'm UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif and open-limp. The player on my left limps. Then a reasonable EP raises. The next player folds. An MP cold calls. A Super-Maniac cold calls. Another extremely loose player cold calls as well in the cutoff. The Button, a relatively tight player for this table cold calls. The Small Blind folds. The Big Blind, a tight player, calls.

The action is back to me and I 3-bet. The player on my left calls two cold. The original EP raiser calls. MP calls. Super-Maniac makes it 4 bets. Everybody calls to me and I cap it at 5 bets. Everybody calls.

8 players see the flop for 5 bets each. 20.25 big bets are in the pot.

The flop is: A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif

It's checked to me and I bet. The first two players call, including the original EP pre-flop raiser. The MP folded. Super-Maniac and loose Cutoff call. The Button raised. Tight Big Blind called two bets cold. I 3-bet. Both EPs folded. Super-Maniac and Cutoff called two bets cold. Button called. Big Blind called.

5 players see the turn with 28.75 big bets in the pot.

The turn is: A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Tight Big Blind checked. I bet. Super-Maniac and Cutoff folded. Button called. Big Blind called.

3 players see the turn with 31.75 big bets in the pot.

The river is: A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Big Blind checked. I bet. Button called. Big Blind called.

[The Dude]

It sounds like GoT and I rolled into the Mirage one day too late!!!

[CrackerZack]

I'm trying to imagine some of the hands folded on the flop and turn. Could they possibly be drawing dead already? to each other? they're getting 40-1 on the flop, and 28-1 on the turn. Christ you can almost hope to spike a one outer on the flop. Nice game.

[Joe Tall]

I wonder about the button and what he put you on.

What does he think about your game? Assuming you've played together in the past.

Unfortunatley, I think he's put you on a higher set. What a game though.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[LarsVegas]

This hand is a prime excample of a hand with several decisions in it, but very few big ones or even ones that matter much at all.

Pre-flop, I would usually raise this from UTG. I don't feel the need to elaborate on that. But limping is fine too. When the action comes back to you with six players in for two bets each and a limper behind you, it's close between smooth-calling or three-betting. I lean towards three-betting. When it's back to you for four bets, it's even less of a decision. You could flip a coin. But again, given how you have played the hand, I lean towards capping it.

The flop is a no-brainer. You could choose to smooth-call a flop raise, that wouldn't be disasterous, but I again lean towards your decision in three-betting.

On the turn, you could decide to check it. All reasonable hands will call. Your King protects you against a scare card (the Ten) and gives you reason to see the river no matter what, even though you wouldn't like doing so by paying multiple bets on the turn (what would you line be if raised on the turn? - and now I am talking about what to do on an unimproved river too). But once more, I like your decision in betting.

The river is again somewhat close. But since I honestly cannot see you being raised here, I think it is a bet.

Good post. I have had a few potentially similar hands, but I never seem to catch the flop after capping AK multiway in very loose-aggressive games! :-)

lars

[andyfox]

I originally misread the first sentence of your post and thought you said the game was "the nuts, as in the best possible game." But you just said "nuts," as in wild and crazy. I find these types of games less desirable than slightly calmer ones.

My general MO parallels precisely how you played this hand: hit 'em over a head with a hammer and keep doing it until it's over or you have irrefutable evidnece that your hand is no good and you have no outs.

[SinCityGuy]

The difference between a great player (Dynasty) and an average player (me). I would be shown Q8 on the river.

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference between a great player (Dynasty) and an average player (me). I would be shown Q8 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

...followed by, "I thought you had aces."

[bernie]

Yknow, i had a hand like this in a fake money tourney recently. I was screwing around and had AJs on the first hand. 6 of us went all in. Cards face up and no one had a PP or a better hand than me.

If any card 8 or above hit the board it would hit someone. No card above a 7 came and i took it down.

b

[astroglide]

haha!

[mike l.]

my guess is you lost to two pair held by one of the "tighties" who put you on AA. that said, i think you played it fine.

[Dynasty]

Three players showed down their hand and AKo was good. Sadly, both the Button and I had AKo so we split the pot. The Big Blind had the last Ace with someting like A3s.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Good post. I have had a few potentially similar hands, but I never seem to catch the flop after capping AK multiway in very loose-aggressive games! :-)


[/ QUOTE ]

It's interesting to note that there may be more to this statement than simple bad luck. Look, dynasty is up against a) another AK, b) another Ax, c) a host of other unknown hands, potentially holding some of the two missing kings. There's only one one ace left in the deck, the one that miraculously hit the flop. Dynasty unwittingly capped preflop with a 3-outer out of position, and may well have caught the only card left in the deck that helped him.

Hard as it is to believe, 5-betting this apparent monster preflop probably isn't the best decision. I don't mind the limp-reraise plan, but when eight people are in and it's back to you, maybe just calling is the way to go.

Note that keeping the pot a bit smaller has other strategic advantages in making your hand stand up should you be fortunate enough to flop a pair.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
There's only one one ace left in the deck, the one that miraculously hit the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so miraculous? Even if you had all this information, you would expect the Ace to come on the flop 9.375% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Hard as it is to believe, 5-betting this apparent monster preflop probably isn't the best decision. I don't mind the limp-reraise plan, but when eight people are in and it's back to you, maybe just calling is the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be interested in knowing what the odds of holding AKo at the same time somebody else holds AKo. It seems that I actually ran into a very rare situation when AK is in bad shape in a family pot.

[Sooga]

What do you do if you get raised on the river? THis is a situation I frequently find myself in, and given the size of the pot, I justify a call, only to be shown some random-ass two pair.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do if you get raised on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

With about 35 big bets in the pot? Gee, I wonder...

[ QUOTE ]
THis is a situation I frequently find myself in, and given the size of the pot, I justify a call, only to be shown some random-ass two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Selective memory- a side effect of playing poker.

[Sooga]

No, I replied because I honestly can't remember a time I got raised in a pot that big, called, and then won. I've been racking my brain and I can't come up with a single time. Granted, these situations don't come up that often, and I don't play mid-high stakes, but still.

[chesspain]

I used to struggle with my inner weak-tightie on the river, and I was missing a ton of river value bets. However, I've now shifted into almost always betting the river when I believe I'm ahead, unless the board is structured in such a way that I can't imagine anyone calling or raising without a better hand.

Furthermore, since I was often afraid to bet the river due to the risk of a reraise, I have since forced myself to call most of these infrequent raises unless I have reason to believe that the odds of my hand being good are way less than the cost of the final bet...and you know what...my bankroll has never been healthier, and this newfound confidence has also allowed me to steal way more pots on the river with marginal hands.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
What's so miraculous? Even if you had all this information, you would expect the Ace to come on the flop 9.375% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're almost 11:1 against, getting 7:1. And this is good? True, you're getting some implied odds should you hit. On the other hand, you're paying reverse implied odds every time you miss, as you'll almost certainly see the river and probably showdown this hand in this huge pot.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be interested in knowing what the odds of holding AKo at the same time somebody else holds AKo. It seems that I actually ran into a very rare situation when AK is in bad shape in a family pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

When eight people see the flop for five bets, the odds go up a lot, don't you think? How many times are you going to see aces or kings and payoff all the way when you get this kind of action?

I think AK offsuit is typically way overvalued in pots like this. These are rare situations though and it probably doesn't matter that much.

My 2 cents.

-Eric

[Sooga]

You are absolutely 100% right. Not value betting my river is without a doubt the biggest hole in my game right now. The only thing is it's not hurting me that badly because knuckleheads on PartyPoker will bet the river for me with any random-ass trash pair they have. But I really need to learn to value bet more on the river if I want to move up.

[JGalt]

I remember playing a hand once in a 10-20 game with some crazy raisers. I had AKd I was intial raiser on the button and was re-raised in mid position by a nut I re-raised and by the time it came back to me it was capped, I think there were six callers. I can't remember the specifics of the hand but I had a flush draw on the flop. In the end I think there were four players left and checked all the way around on the river. I won with Ace high K kicker. Final pot was in the $500 area.

[elindauer]

Hi Dynasty,

This article changed the way I look at AKo and similar hands in this situation. You might find it interesting.

http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13843

Enjoy.

-Eric

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
This article changed the way I look at AKo and similar hands in this situation. You might find it interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could you possibly take that article seriously?

Against five "legitimate" limpers and two random hands in the blinds, this is how the author ranked the value of starting hands on the button.

1. 44
2. 66
3. 55
4. 33
5. 77
6. 22
7. KK
8. 88
9. AA
10. QQ
11. 99
12. TT
13. JJ

The following hands were ranked above AKs:

65s, 54s, 75s, 75s, 64s, 53s, 87s, 86s, A5s, 64s (printed twice in article), 43s, 98s, A4s, T9s, 74s, ATs, QJs, AQs, KJs, AJs, and KQs.

Pure idiocy shouldn't always have to be pointed out.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to struggle with my inner weak-tightie

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif im sure it conjures up an image many players face. Myself included.

b

[brick]

From article: "And these simulations reflect only the fairly unusual case in which you believe all of the callers have legitimate hands."

This is why you muck AQ at tight table that suddenly gets active. The hand values change.

The game Dynasty described was not tight, and therefore you can't put the limpers on "legitemate" hands.

IMO this article describes a situation that you should rarely, very rarely, encounter. Play at loose tables and avoid this situation. (although it is prudent to be ready for it, and understand the concept)

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Dynasty,

This article changed the way I look at AKo and similar hands in this situation. You might find it interesting.

http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13843

Enjoy.

-Eric


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me examplify the obvious idiocy of this article: It claims that in a 7 handed pot AA has only a fair share equity (1/7=14.3% author claims 15.1%) which should be obviously false. Let me give an example from Twodimes:

Holdem Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards win %win
Ad Ah 31.77
Ks Ac 3.83
As Qh 3.33
Qd Kh 6.43
7c 7h 21.10
5s 4c 10.57
8s 2c 11.25
Js 5d 8.09

Even though both the other A's are out AA still has double the fair share equity.

[nicky g]

"So you're almost 11:1 against, getting 7:1. And this is good?"

You're 11-1 to hit the ace, not to win. There are many other ways AK can win, the most obvious being with a king, not to mention unimproved. You can't possibly know someone else has AK anyway. Sure the more bets go in the slightly more likelier it becomes, but as pointed out this was a wild game.