Hrm....

[Ben]

$50 NL tables on Party.

I'm dealt J2o in the BB. One limper in LP and I check the BB. We both have about $50 in front of us.

Flop: Jh 2c Th

I bet about $4, am raised to $8, and I make it like $15. LP calls.
He didn't put in another raise here, so I put him on AJ, maybe an aggressive flush draw or mayyyyybe trips or top-two. What do you guys put him on here? I thought he would have pushed after my last RR with trips.

Turn: blank

I bet $20, LP calls. No raise again.

River: 6h

I push my remaining stack.


What do you guys think?

-Ben

[Yardbird]

[ QUOTE ]
$50 NL tables on Party.

I'm dealt J2o in the BB. One limper in LP and I check the BB. We both have about $50 in front of us.

Flop: Jh 2c Th

I bet about $4, am raised to $8, and I make it like $15. LP calls.
He didn't put in another raise here, so I put him on AJ, maybe an aggressive flush draw or mayyyyybe trips or top-two. What do you guys put him on here? I thought he would have pushed after my last RR with trips.
<font color="blue">Here my estimation is that he has top-two at a minimum.</font>
Turn: blank

I bet $20, LP calls. No raise again.
<font color="blue"> You're betting for him---could go either way---if I was your opponent and had trips I'd probably just call in this situation too.
Looking at this from the other side... Perhaps this guy (you) is trying to run me off my top-two pair by betting like he has trips---I call!</font>

River: 6h

I push my remaining stack.
<font color="blue"> I think I might have checked here in your position to threaten a raise and save myself some cash (if he bets) since he's obviously not going to be shaken off; but, I'd still be tempted to call any bet he might make. </font>
-Ben

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> Maybe I'm just weak? How'd it turn out? My guess is that because you chose to post it here, you lost to a set of Ts.

In a flesh&amp;blood game I think I might have check-called on the turn to test his eagerness to build the pot, and check-raised once the 3rd heart arrived if he'd bet the Turn, or check-called if he took the free-card.</font>

[Richie Rich]

I like the aggressive play, Ben, which usually is rewarded when playing at the NL stakes. However, I "feel" like your opponent was most likely on a flush draw.

If he had been on trips, I think your opponent would have bet MUCH stronger to protect his hand, especially when you consider there were two hearts on the flop. The fact that he only min-raised your flop bet, then called your re-raise and turn bet is consistent with that theory.

I think that he raised you on the flop because he was taking advantage of his position with a flush draw. By raising your flop bet, then, he's hoping that you will check on the turn...which is to his advantage, since he can see the turn and river for very cheap.

Unfortunately a third /images/graemlins/heart.gif (not the 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) fell on the river...which was one of the last cards you were hoping to see. Like I said before, I like your aggressive play, and you can use this tactic to your advantage when playing NL. But it's all about using this tactic at the right times. In this case, I don't think that's so...

[Daann]

Is that a specific read on the limper or a general read of the betting pattern? If it is just a general read then I wouldn't discount set/top two so easily as he has position on you and you are betting your hand for him. A lot of people go passive if their hand is strong and an aggressive player is kicking off at them.

Another point is the reraise, its far too small. He is getting about 3.5:1 immediate pot odds and if a flush draw is one of your possiblities then you have priced him in.

I'd probably pot reraise/push on the flop depending on what he would call if I thought my hand was good.

About the river, I would check call here as the only hand that you can beat here that he would realistically call with this far is AJ. He's highly unlikely to believe you have made the flush.

[Yardbird]

[ QUOTE ]
If he had been on trips, I think your opponent would have bet MUCH stronger to protect his hand, especially when you consider there were two hearts on the flop. The fact that he only min-raised your flop bet, then called your re-raise and turn bet is consistent with that theory.


[/ QUOTE ]

With TT in the pocket:

This was Party, so maybe this guy thought that he'd try sitting in the bushes pre-flop /images/graemlins/confused.gif I certainly wouldn't have; but, stranger things have happened I'm sure.

Given his pre-flop weakness I don't think he would have pushed-in on the flop in response to the re-raise, because the pot's already built up nicely, and he doesn't want to get into a pissing-match before the Turn.

He might have become afraid of our hero having Johnnys and just called the super-aggressive bet on the turn, and resigned himself to looking our hero up.

[MrFroggyX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he had been on trips, I think your opponent would have bet MUCH stronger to protect his hand, especially when you consider there were two hearts on the flop. The fact that he only min-raised your flop bet, then called your re-raise and turn bet is consistent with that theory.


[/ QUOTE ]

Had I TT in the pocket I might have been afraid of our hero having Johnnys and just called his super-aggressive raise on the turn, and resigned myself to calling him down. This was Party, so maybe this guy thought that he'd try sitting in the bushes pre-flop /images/graemlins/confused.gif I certainly wouldn't have; but, stranger things have happened I'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't always have the nuts when you put in a bet or raise you know.. And stop looking for monsters under your bed.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

And also:
[ QUOTE ]
Had I TT in the pocket I might have been afraid of our hero having Johnnys and just called his super-aggressive raise on the turn

[/ QUOTE ] Super aggresive raise? Hey first its not a raise.. it's a bet.. And super aggresive? He bets $20 in to a $35 pot.. Not super aggresive..

[Yardbird]

[ QUOTE ]
Super aggresive raise? Hey, first its not a raise.. it's a bet.. <font color="red"> Point conceeded. </font> And super aggresive? He bets $20 in to a $35 pot.. Not super aggresive..

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that strictly speaking in NLH a super-aggressive bet may not be anything less than moving-in, but...

You forget that $20 in this situation is over half of each of these players' remaining stacks... It's big money in that perspective IMHO.

[MrFroggyX]

Sorry if I sounded hard.. But my point was if you played 1010 like you described.. It would be a bad way to play it. IMHO.

But we are all different..

[Yardbird]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I sounded hard.. But my point was if you <font color="blue">(someone? <font color="red">( certainly not Yardbird! )</font> )</font> played 1010 like you described... It would be a bad way to play it. IMHO.

But we are all different..

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally AGREE! I was just saying that there are lots of yah-hoos on Party that would play like that /images/graemlins/grin.gif I'm certainly not one of them; however, as I've remarked earlier in this thread, my money is on this exact circumstance as the impetus for our hero to have posted this situation. I'm looking forward to seeing the conclusion of this hand.

No hard feelings despite our collective tendency to use "pointed" (personal) pronouns in our posts, friend. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Yardbird]

Quit slow-rolling Ben! /images/graemlins/wink.gif I might go on tilt! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[NaobisDad]

You already know how valuable my advise is (NOT) but for what it's worth I think the flop play is fine. I"m not sure about betting out the turn anymore, because at UB i'm likely to find more than top and bottom calling. But I understand you don't want to give a free card, $20 is about half a pot right?

Are party players bad enough to keep calling those kind of bets with top pair?

I think top two is more likely than trips.

Edit: just read other posts. And maybe that flop reraise was to small. But it seemed big enough in relation to stack size. I'm only recently learning how vulnerable 2-pair like this can be.
As for TT, I find it somewhat unlikely holding. In Lp's shoes I would've probably raised the TT preflop. That doesn't mean others would, of course.

[ALL1N]

After he min raises the flop, I'd put him on either AJ, AA-QQ, a straight or flush draw, or TT (long shot).

I'd make the play to get his stack, which would be either to make a bigger reraise on the flop (most likely), or go for a turn checkraise unless a heart or ten falls.

[Ben]

LP had JT for top two.

I couldn't really see a way I wasn't going to lose my stack on this. There are plenty of players who would play AJ like this and I felt like it was +EV.

Oh man do I hate being out of position. Maybe I should have tried to keep the pot pretty small just due to that big disadvantage. This isn't the only time I've aggressively but my whole stack into a smoothcaller with a nice made hand. Is there any way around that sort of thing?

Now that you're input is appropriately skewed, you guys have any more thoughts? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[scrub]

I didn't bother reading most of the thread.

I put him on JT when I read the first four lines of the post, given that you had bothered posting it, and you had bottom two on a JT high board and were getting action.

JT and QJ boards are danger in a limped pot. If you're getting action with something that can't beat top two, you need to try to keep the pot small and get to showdown cheap.

The texture of the board is something you have to be sensitive to, and it can radically change the value of your holding. When there are two connected cards on the board that people almost always play when they get dealt them, you need to be sensitive to the prospect of two pair.

It's just like how you would have to be careful of your Queens over Jacks if you somehow got yourself into a raised pot with QJ and the board came down QJT. You have a good hand, but if you get action, there's a likely suspect hand that beats you...

On that board, you really had the worst hand better than one pair, since T2 isn't a very likely holding. You want to treat it like good top pair, not say "I have two pair, therefore I want to get all the money in."

scrub

[MrFroggyX]

Ahh.. Sorry.. Tought you meant that you would play it like that.. Im sorry.. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Take Care. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Yardbird]

[ QUOTE ]
LP had JT for top two.

I couldn't really see a way I wasn't going to lose my stack on this. This isn't the only time I've aggressively but my whole stack into a smoothcaller with a nice made hand. Is there any way around that sort of thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

&lt;Scotch accent&gt; Don't doo it man! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Sorry to be the sand in the vaseline; but, if you were sure you were behind and he didn't respond to your agression on the Turn, why did you push-in on the end? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MVicuna]

Hi,

This is $1BB at party. Its a lot tougher and tighter then $.50BB. When its called after reraising you. You have to start thinking there is a some chance your non-top 2 are not good and try to get to SD cheaply. Making big bets that get called on the turn is a good sign your against a made hand that has some doubt its good, but still has a lot of SD value. If you had a deaper stack I'd say value betting the river is wrong here has hands like JT/22/TT will still call, but might not reraise you on the flop/turn/river after you reraised them.

Think about how you'd play it if you had top 2 in position against some one who reraised you.

If you reraise them back you will make hands like TPTK and bottom 2 fold unless they are overly agressive.

If you reraise them, the hands that call or raise you usually beat you.

If you just call there is a good chance your not beaten when you get bet into and you can call a turn bet and see a showdown with a strong hand vs a blind.

If you just call and they check, you can decide if you want to value bet the turn or the river. I doubt you'll get called both times unless your beaten or they just cant lay down hands.

In NL you need to be able to keep hands that you dominate calling bets, not push them out. So re-reraising should only be used to get overly agressive players chips into the middle or to steal pots. But at Party's structure re-raising almost pot sticks everyone so you'd better have the winning hand.

At the $1BB level you will be playing against reasonable players. I would have folded every single hand that I limp from LP that you beat to your reraise.

If you just call. I would have bet the turn roughly 2/3 of the pot and probably folded to a reraise. I would check behind you on the river or just call a reasonable/outlandish bet on the river.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[1800GAMBLER]

SO how would you play the hand?

[Yardbird]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahh.. Sorry.. Tought you meant that you would play it like that.. Im sorry.. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Take Care. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey no problem... I would appreciate commentary on how I think I may have played the hand live (much differently than our online hero): It was at the end of the first post in this topic here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=651694&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I'd like to see more constructive criticism of suggested alternate ways to play posted hands in these forums; that way even the respondents can get some cold water splashed on their gray-cells from time-to-time /images/graemlins/cool.gif