ATo - Isolating the Loose Player

[StellarWind]

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Good table loose/passive with a couple of rocks. BB is an ordinary calling station. MP1 is very loose/passive with VP$IP over 60%.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 6.25 BB, between Hero and BB.</font>

[Ralph Wiggum]

I see this PF raise as loose aggressive. Anyone else feel this way?

[bisonbison]

Ok, help me see this one. BB is a calling station, but you're raising to isolate MP? Is he just a calling station postflop?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I see this PF raise as loose aggressive. Anyone else feel this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[Nottom]

I like it. The board certainly did its best to screw you over on this one, hopw you won.

[MortalNuts]

Hi SW --

I like it on all streets.

Just to make things interesting, what's your gameplan if the BB bets out on the flop? Fold? Raise?

cheers,

mn

[sweetjazz]

I think the preflop raise is good given your reads on players. I like the flop bet. On the turn, I think I prefer to see you check behind. Hopefully, you induce a bluff on the river from Ax or Jx. If he checks again on the river after a blank falls, you can bet for value.

I like the turn bet if you can safely lay your hand down if he check-raises you on the turn. Otherwise, I prefer checking behind. I also prefer to avoid plays that might result in me laying down a hand to turn check-raise, as that might tempt one of the passive players to take a stab at me later on and cost me a pot.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I'd suggest a fold. He described BB as a calling station, so for him to bet, I'd suspect at least TP.

[Ralph Wiggum]

My 2 cents:

I guess this PF raise is cool, since I do it with similar reads out of the SB, which is worse position than you have in this hand.

If you're playing against a calling station as the BB was in this hand. Then you bet the turn, because you believe you have the best hand right? BB's probably not going to fold, and he'll only C/R a monster, so it's an easy fold if it happens.

Betting the turn sets you up to check the river, like Stellar did, or bet again if a helpful card falls. That way it's possible for him to win the maximum when a good card falls, and lose less if he's behind. I hope my thinking is right, if not please advise.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're playing against a calling station as the BB was in this hand. Then you bet the turn, because you believe you have the best hand right? BB's probably not going to fold, and he'll only C/R a monster, so it's an easy fold if it happens.

Betting the turn sets you up to check the river, like Stellar did, or bet again if a helpful card falls. That way it's possible for him to win the maximum when a good card falls, and lose less if he's behind. I hope my thinking is right, if not please advise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding Ding. We have a winner.

[MortalNuts]

That was sort of my initial take on it, too, but I think a good argument can be made for raising the flop bet if you are somewhat confident that

a) the BB will basically never 3-bet you without a hand that has you drawing nearly dead, and

b) the other players will check to you on the turn if you raise the flop

If BB will bet into you again on the river with a hand like TP if you check behind on the turn, you stand to pull down something like a 7 BB pot when you hit one of your likely 5 outs. (Sure, there's a chance some of your outs aren't clean, but there's no reason to assume that yet. Plus you have backdoor straight possibilites, for what that's worth.) The situation is even better if MP calls BB's bet and your raise on the flop.

If BB won't bet into you again on the river even if you check the turn, you don't stand to make quite as much when you improve, but you also get to see showdown with middle pair for a measley 1 BB.

whatever. point is I might raise. I might fold, though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

cheers,

mn

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
Ding Ding. We have a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]
"I beat the smart kids! I beat the smart kids!"

[Ralph Wiggum]

Let's say you're assumptions on BB's passivity is right. BB won't reraise the flop, and he'll check the turn. Also assume MP folds, since he folded to one bet when Stellar bet. So it's HU btwn Stellar &amp; the BB.

We'll assume 5 clean outs, but not the backdoor flush (because I'm not sure what it's worth /images/graemlins/confused.gif). Then you've paid 1-to-5 bets on the flop, and your 5-outs give you 1-to-4 odds (assuming the free turn). So I think your thoughts of a flop raise has merit.

Figuring this out makes me re-think my flop play. Now I can't wait to try to this out. Thx MortalNuts/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[StellarWind]

BB shows same hand. MHIT.

Preflop: It is true that BB is loose. But how much should I care if he calls out-of-position with two random cards? Not the end of the world.

Turn: I elected to postpone my free card until the river because I was hoping he would fold. Probably not fold a winner, but almost any plausible hand for him has outs to beat my pair. The possibility of being checkraised by this player while I am representing AK/AA/KK seems remote. If it happens I will call, take my card (9 outs), and fold if I don't improve.

Thanks for the comments.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to make things interesting, what's your gameplan if the BB bets out on the flop? Fold? Raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold. I assume he has top pair. I could raise and try to make something out of my 5-out MPTK draw. If I can reliably get a free card I might make a tiny profit.

But what about the times he has 88, KT, AK, TT, or T8 and some of my outs are booby-trapped? Or he shows some initiative and refuses to follow the script? The likely outcomes of the hand are about breakeven, but most of the unlikely outcomes involve me getting hurt. That's a -EV situation.