Wan2B
04-25-2004, 12:21 PM
Either I am dumb or Ace-little suited is an extremely overrated hand. I posted this in the no-limit section, but I guess it applies to limit as well.
It appears that the hand is often compared to a small pair or suited connectors in terms of how to play it. At limit, I believe Sklansky states in his book that you need at least 4 or 5 opponents to make it profitable to play in a full ring game. The same applies to a small pair and suited connectors. The logic behind it is that you won't connect very often, and need to be paid off when you do.
Bob Ciaffone writes in his book on no-limit that, if you're contemplating calling a raise in position--with a hand such as Ax suited, suited connectors or a small pair--you should make sure the raise is no more than 10%, preferably no more than 5%, of the money at stake. That way, you can make it profitable to call as long as you manage to double up some of the times you connect.
However, I fail to see why Ax suited would be as good as, say, a small pair. Both connect about 1 in 8 times. A set is no mortal lock, so you need a little more potential gain than 8 times the initial bet. If you hit a good flop with Ax suited (see numbers at the end of this post), most of the time you won't have a lock either. 3 out of 5 times you'll have... a flush draw, which you're almost 2 to 1 to miss. Hardly a ticket through for all your money. I can see how this is profitable at limit, or at no-limit in a multiway pot, but still.. you might be able to get your money in as a money-favorite with the flush draw, but is this worth missing 7 out of 8 times you call for?
Ax suited has even less ways to hit the flop than your average suited connector. It seems to me that its value is significantly less in a large multiway limit/no limit pot, or even a heads-up NL pot. Aside from the extra straight potential, both the connector's cards can be assumed live, in most circumstances. What I mean by that is that, especially in NL, it's fairly safe to hit either of your cards, whereas a pair of aces or even three aces with a low kicker is a double-edged proposition. You can't confidently bet into a multiway pot if you have A3 and the flop is, say, AA7. If you're heads up in NL and hit your ace, you can't be sure the other guy doesn't have AK, AQ or the likes, whereas, as long as you're fairly sure he has two big cards and no pair, a six or seven to your 76s is a lot safer.
So, what's up with this hand? Wherein exactly lies its value? Enlighten me, please! Thanks in advance.
APPENDIX
I enumerated the flops that I think are good for this hand. I deliberatly excluded certain flops, such as two aces, because those can be either golden or a death trap. For similar reasons, I also excluded paired boards with a four-flush. I realize a flush with the board paired can in fact be quite safe, especially if the pair is low, but I wouldn't know where exactly to draw the line and decided to be a little conservative. Anyways, here goes:
Total # of flops: 50*49*48/6 = 19,600
Good flops for Ax suited:
AAA, xxx 2
xxA, AAx 2*(3*3) 18
Flush 11*10*9/6 165
xxY 3*44 132
AxY 3*3*44 396
4-Flush with A (11*10/2)*3 165
4-Flush with x "" 165
4-Flush, no A/x or pair (11*10/2)*27 1485
TOTAL 2528
2528/19600 = 12.9 % <<== most of this figure is accounted for by bare four-flushes
It appears that the hand is often compared to a small pair or suited connectors in terms of how to play it. At limit, I believe Sklansky states in his book that you need at least 4 or 5 opponents to make it profitable to play in a full ring game. The same applies to a small pair and suited connectors. The logic behind it is that you won't connect very often, and need to be paid off when you do.
Bob Ciaffone writes in his book on no-limit that, if you're contemplating calling a raise in position--with a hand such as Ax suited, suited connectors or a small pair--you should make sure the raise is no more than 10%, preferably no more than 5%, of the money at stake. That way, you can make it profitable to call as long as you manage to double up some of the times you connect.
However, I fail to see why Ax suited would be as good as, say, a small pair. Both connect about 1 in 8 times. A set is no mortal lock, so you need a little more potential gain than 8 times the initial bet. If you hit a good flop with Ax suited (see numbers at the end of this post), most of the time you won't have a lock either. 3 out of 5 times you'll have... a flush draw, which you're almost 2 to 1 to miss. Hardly a ticket through for all your money. I can see how this is profitable at limit, or at no-limit in a multiway pot, but still.. you might be able to get your money in as a money-favorite with the flush draw, but is this worth missing 7 out of 8 times you call for?
Ax suited has even less ways to hit the flop than your average suited connector. It seems to me that its value is significantly less in a large multiway limit/no limit pot, or even a heads-up NL pot. Aside from the extra straight potential, both the connector's cards can be assumed live, in most circumstances. What I mean by that is that, especially in NL, it's fairly safe to hit either of your cards, whereas a pair of aces or even three aces with a low kicker is a double-edged proposition. You can't confidently bet into a multiway pot if you have A3 and the flop is, say, AA7. If you're heads up in NL and hit your ace, you can't be sure the other guy doesn't have AK, AQ or the likes, whereas, as long as you're fairly sure he has two big cards and no pair, a six or seven to your 76s is a lot safer.
So, what's up with this hand? Wherein exactly lies its value? Enlighten me, please! Thanks in advance.
APPENDIX
I enumerated the flops that I think are good for this hand. I deliberatly excluded certain flops, such as two aces, because those can be either golden or a death trap. For similar reasons, I also excluded paired boards with a four-flush. I realize a flush with the board paired can in fact be quite safe, especially if the pair is low, but I wouldn't know where exactly to draw the line and decided to be a little conservative. Anyways, here goes:
Total # of flops: 50*49*48/6 = 19,600
Good flops for Ax suited:
AAA, xxx 2
xxA, AAx 2*(3*3) 18
Flush 11*10*9/6 165
xxY 3*44 132
AxY 3*3*44 396
4-Flush with A (11*10/2)*3 165
4-Flush with x "" 165
4-Flush, no A/x or pair (11*10/2)*27 1485
TOTAL 2528
2528/19600 = 12.9 % <<== most of this figure is accounted for by bare four-flushes