Question about KJo playability

[cnfuzzd]

Ive been re-examining my hand selection lately and have noticed some problems with KJo. I was curious how the micro forum rates this hand, and where we consider it playable from. Thanks.

peace

John nickle

[bisonbison]

If ever, even once (except from an obvious steal position), someone raises, you should fold.

If you're in EP, you should fold. If you're in EMP, fold. If you're in LMP and it's folded to you and the table's tight, consider raising. If you're in LP and it's several limpers to you, fold. If you're in LP and it's folded to you, raise. If you're in LP and there's one or to players to you, limp. Complete it in the SB, check it in the big.

Be careful, but never fearful. And stand up straight.

[MasterShakes]

The Wave says that bison's advice on KJo is sound. However, The Wave hopes that bb has moved on to 3/6 by the time The Wave roars into 2/4 in another 8,000 hands or so. Humans be warned.

[illunious]

I raise in late position if I can limit the field to less than 3 opponents. I complete the SB 100% of the time, but I get the feeling I should start raising it shorthanded. I usually call or reraise a blind steal in the BB and fold the BB to any other raise.

At 10-handed .5/1 My VPIP (percentage of times I paid to see a flop) is 15.52 and Pre-flop raise % 4.31

A big leak is to be playing these big offsuit cards to often. You should normally fold this hand in EP-MP.

[Nottom]

I talked a bit about KJo in one of the other threads and it basicaly went something like this:

If you have KJo preflop and don't feel comfortable raising then fold. (Obviously, I'm not talking about checking/completing the blinds here)

You can put this advice towards ATo as well.

[siccjay]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're in LP and it's several limpers to you, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do this unless you were sitting behind a bunch of rocks that all just limped? You have a good kicker against micro limit players when you flop either as a lone pair. The nut straight is also nice to have in a multi-way pot.

I hate KJo because it knocked my QQ out of a MTT with 15 people left, but I still like it a micro limits.

[bisonbison]

Because it's an offsuit one-gapper, it's main value is in it's high-pair potential.

Unfortunately, it has a very real and scary tendency to make second best hands, especially since some people at the microlimits won't be nice enough to raise you out of the pot with AJ or KQ, both of which destroy you in very real and legally binding ways.

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]
You have a good kicker against micro limit players when you flop either as a lone pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a bunch of loose limpers, it may be much better than the junk they have. However, many times your opponents will also be passive, limping with hands that dominate KJo.

From the posts I have read about the hand, it isn't a good hand against 4+ opponents.

KJs on the other hand, I am VPIP 72% of the time.

[siccjay]

I agree with you but you don't think all the times they pay you with K 7o and J 8o make up for the few times they actually have KQ or AJ?

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have KJo preflop and don't feel comfortable raising then fold. (Obviously, I'm not talking about checking/completing the blinds here)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is great advice Nottom.

When I first started playing, I couldn't release it, then one day I realized I'd make more money by folding it. Since then, I have noticed my comfort zone in playing this hand move from SB to button to CO, and I'm now experiementing with LMP positions.

[Nottom]

Don't get me wrong, I play KJo more than just about anybody here (VPiP 49% @ 3/6) but its still not a hand I really want to play against a slew of limpers and I think most beginning players tend to value it way too high.

[bisonbison]

And the times when someone makes a flush, but you have no flush potential, and the time when your two pair puts most of a straight on the board, but your 1-gapper means very few straights for you, and those times when you've got everyone dominated except for A7o who's got bottom pair and rivers an ace?

It's not as simple as saying KJo beats K7o or JTo. KJo almost never makes the nuts (or the 2nd nuts, or the 5th nuts), which means it is hard to extract the maximum for those times when you are free and clear.

I'm not saying that KJo is actively bad. Heads-up it's a favorite against the majority of hands. Unfortunately, big unsuiteds do not have the big hand potential that is vital to long-term success in multi-way pots. AQo and AJo are better in this regard for two reasons: 1) they can make an unassailable top pair; and 2) they are more likely to find Ax players to outkick than KJo is likely to find Kx players.

[MicroBob]

good thread.
i've been too aggressive with my KJo....although it has proven to be a profitable hand for me thus far i suspect i've gotten luckier more than anything else.

i'm far more conservative with ATo...although that is actually a break-even hand for me.

PF, i think i'm going to pretend that it's almost a KTo and play accordingly....that will probably keep me more in line with how it is supposed to be played.


thanks for accidentally identifying this major leak in my game guys.

[Trix]

I openraise from MP2 or later.
I raise 1 bad limper(maybe 2) if I think i can keep it short-handed, but might fold to a tight EP limper. I prefer limping if I know it will be multiway.