The PA slips up

[Gamblor]

Yesterday, Israeli Prime Minister told his nation that the Israeli government is no longer bound by his commitment to President Bush not to harm Yasser Arafat.

The PA's response?

Jibril Rajoub, Arafat's national security advisor, warned that "the blood of Arafat will chase the Jews forever, the same as Christ's blood."

He said Sharon was constituted a threat to the stability in the region. "President Arafat is the elected leader of the Palestinian people," he added. "If Israel tries to harm him, this would mean a declaration of war on all Palestinians, Arabs, and the entire Muslim world."


Arafat takes Sharon threat seriously (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1082697654494)

The PA shows right here exactly how it turns Israelis into Jews, as well as betrays that even the Palestinians believe they are part of a unified Arab "team" against Israel, a team that has attempted to eliminate the Jewish presence in the Middle East.

How many times have I attempted to remind everyone, despite various claims to the contrary, that it is the Arabs who have racialized this conflict?

[whiskeytown]

I generally stay out of this struggle per se - it's one that not only do I not have a biological say in (as opposed to say, the Irish struggle for independance, which hits me at least as a partial irishman) - but it's also older then dirt - and no amount of argument on either side is gonna convince hardliners to change, so why try?

however, I am a student of History - and it doesn't take a professor to realize that Israelies, and those of the Jewish religion in particular, have certainly earned the right to defend themselves, their faith, and their land - none of us, either in a political or moral sense have been able to do it for them -

Let them have their country, build their border, and reclaim their homeland....jeez...

RB

[daryn]

seriously gamblor, i'm looking for info when i ask this question. i am really ignorant to the subject.

when i think of jews, i think of a race, and a religion. is this wrong? what's the story?

[andyfox]

Israel defines itself as a Jewish state.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
when i think of jews, i think of a race, and a religion. is this wrong? what's the story?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. And one I hinted at in the Nobel Prize thread. I thought of going off track then but stopped myself. Let's take it up here.

From the Oxford Dictionary:

Jew, noun -

1. A person of Hebrew descent; a person whose religion is Judaism; Hist. an Israelite.

2. A person who behaves in a manner formerly attributed to Jews; spec. a grasping or extortionate person, one who drives hard bargains. derg. & considered offense.

3. A peddler. colloq.

4. A ship's tailor. Nautical slang.


Given 1 above, your assessment of Jew meaning both a 'race' and a religion seems to fit. If a Jew is suppose to fit both categories to be called 'Jewish' is probably a matter of debate and semantics. Many Jews are certainly not very religious in any sense of the word, but probably still consider themselves Jews. Jewish lineage is matriarchal, a fact which adds to some modern day confusion.

Note the word 'formerly' in definition 2. Interesting word to add, no?

Definition 4 is interesting. Saul of Tarsus was a sail maker.


There are more interesting takes on the above definitions but I will stop for now and let others elaborate or add comments etc., as we have some experts on the subject that post here.

-Zeno

[daryn]

i often hear things like, "oh i'm half jewish". what does this even mean?

if someone says, "i'm half black", then i know what it means, but is saying you're half jewish more like saying you're half black, or is it more like saying you're half buddhist?

silly

[Gamblor]

if someone says, "i'm half black", then i know what it means, but is saying you're half jewish more like saying you're half black, or is it more like saying you're half buddhist?

Half Jewish is a phrase (around these parts) mostly used by secular Jews with one Jewish parent and one non-Jewish parent. So it is more the half-black than half-buddhist

In the case of Israel, the criteria determining Jewishness (for the purpose of the Law of Return) is, by no coincidence, the same law used by Hitler to determine who was fit for a healthy dose of Zyklon B: if any single one of your grandparents was Jewish.

Jewish law stipulates that since the mother is for the most part responsible for raising the child and imparting values, it is the mother's lineage that is passed on.

i.e. if your mother is Jewish, you're Jewish. If not, then you're not.

This thread got me thinking... How many times have you heard that since the Holocaust and anti-semitic violence get so much more "airplay" than non-Jewish racist violence, it is part of the evidence that to some degree, Jews control the media?

Following this argument, I control these forums. In reality, I only post here. It takes a million responses to "control" a forum.

[daryn]

so being jewish can be both being a part of a certain race, AND part of a certain religion, either together or not?

[whiskeytown]

god, how technical do you want to get.....

they are both Isralies and Jews - Offically, they are decendants of the tribe of Judah, which is a member of the 12 tribes of Israel - (give or take two, since they liked to put Joseph's kids in there too)

about the timeframe of 700 BC - you had two kindgoms in the land...the northern tribes of Israel (10 of them) and the lower southern tribes, which was Judah and Benjamin, I think....

Anyways, I think the Assyrians, or the whoever...(Israel got their ass kicked a lot back then) - then came down in 706 BC, conquored the Northen Kingdon, and hauled off the 10 Northern tribes in the northern Kingdom (refered to as Israel - another name for Jacob who was the father of the 12 tribes) - into captivity - they sorta vanished from history at that point...a few freaks like Garner Ted Armstrong says the English - ergo Americans are the 10 lost tribes, but they're mostly believed to have been integrated into the society that took them. -

However, if you believe the O.T. - the Assyrans were stopped before taking Judah....angel of the Lord killed 100000 of them in one night - they were to punish the wicked northern tribes, etc, etc....anyways, a few yrs later, the Babylonians came down and took Judah and it's people into capivity for 70 yrs but let them return, didn't integrate them into their society, etc, etc... - that kept the idenity of those two tribes seperate and still around.

SO....technically, a Jew is a Religious Israeli - and Israel believes anyone who has gone thru the 3 tests of the jewish faith is a citizen of Israel and therefore can get Citizenship there/asylum, etc, etc...

but interestingly enough, those we refer to as jewish are really only about 1/6th of the original 12 tribes of Israel -

just assume the terms are interchangable, and the really religious ones are called Orthodox.

clear? - didn't think so...

-------------------------------

Now, an interesting story.... - God said in the OT he let the Assyrians do that cause the Israelites were worshipping Baal - remember him...some other god who they kept falling towards...Golden Calf, stuff like that... Baal worship was pretty common, and some kings even threw the idols in the Temple in Jerusalem...that pissed off God apparently, and he was gonna teach them a lesson by letting the Assyrians/babylons come in and kick some ass

and the priests of Baal - well, they had a lot of temples.... -

when the tribes of Judah came back after 70 yrs, they found a whole shitload of bodies around those shrines of Baal, touching them, thinking Baal would save them....some gory, gory stuff that had a visibly disturbing impact on the returning tribes of Judah.

after they returned - the Jewish people never even CONSIDERED Baal worship again and were solidly grounded then on in the basic tenants of the Jewish faith - so results in Jewish/Israeli meaning almost the same thing from a political/religious sentiment these days...

and interesting enough, the term "The Jews" really didn't come around till the NT - in the OT, prior to the kingdom falling in 686, they were the Isralies - the tribes of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, but not really called the Jewish people. (exept the tribe of Judah...and the tribe of Levi were called Levites, etc, etc...)

but by the NT, the tribe of Judah was pretty much the only one left...

RB

[daryn]

ok i got it..

so are they a race, a religion, or both?

[whiskeytown]

[whiskeytown]

let me put it to you this way....

You're in Boston... - In Boston, there are a lot of Irish. Irish are mostly Catholic - Irish are also Caucusian for the most part - a member of the Anglo-Saxon breed of man, who in turns is part of that group known as Homo Sapiens.

So an Irish and Catholic are mostly interchangable, since the two identies so often fuse together, but any number of labels can work...so it is with Jewish/Israel -

RB

[daryn]

i may never understand /images/graemlins/frown.gif

where is gamblor?

[Gamblor]

Fucked up, ain't it?

If you have 30 bucks to blow (and judging by your skills with a deck of cards you do), and if you really are interested, hook yourself up with a good book. I think they even have one in the ...for Dummies series.

The funny thing about being a member of a group is that you that you never stop to consider how you became a member.

[Gamblor]

the Jew FAQ (http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm)

I don't understand it either. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[daryn]

well it seems to me that being a jew has more to do with religion than race.

that being said, why are people always referring to themselves as jews? i am roman catholic, but that would never be the first thing i identified myself as, but why would jews do that?

[Gamblor]

Cause when you're a minority everywhere you are (but one place) you

In Israel, nobody gives a shit if someone is Jewish or not, at least in the micro sense. In the macro sense it matters because events like Russian pogroms, the Holocaust, the Spanish Inquisition, the Roman and Babylonian exiles, etc. are integral parts of the curriculum.

The best description I ever heard of the way Jewish holidays work is as follows:

"They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat."

[daryn]

i still don't get it. it seems like a minority group trying to call for special treatment. the thing i don't get is why people have to be identified as jews. like i said, i am roman catholic, but most people in the US are not, i guess that makes me a minority, no? but i don't go around wearing a sign or telling everyone what my religion is.

[Gamblor]

My point was... I think, in general, Jews have, as a result of all the bullshit they've put up with, a serious inferiority complex, despite the blatant pride.

It's the same reason you know every Canadian in the room immediately.

"They make fun of us and treat us like [censored], they think they're better, they must be better. Let's overcompensate by being obnoxious about NOT being non-Jewish/American."

On a subconscious level, obviously.

It to some degree drives Israeli policy as well.

[HDPM]

Gamblor already gave most of the answer. There are multiple reasons for it. Kind of like whether light is a particle or wave; it exhibits tendencies of both. The religion is passed on, as all of the links say, through the mother. So it has hallmarks of a race even though people from any race can be Jews. Many of the practices of the orthodox serve to prevent full assimilation into a society. They are designed that way for various reasons. If you are observant you can't eat the same foods, go to the same restaurants, dress the same way, etc... as others in whatever society you are in. Intermarriage is discouraged. So the orthodox will always be just a little bit outside of the rest. Jews have lived in hostile societies for thousands of years, so it is natural that there is a view of the group as a race. Often those hostile societies decided to kill or expel the Jews and made their decisions along birthlines, as the post on the law of return said. And the history is still fresh. So it is no surprise that Jews view it differently from the way you might view your religion. As time goes on and Jews become more secular and assimilated, this view of Judaism as a race will wane. It is happening now and will continue, at least in the US and Canada, and other countries aside from Israel. At least until somebody else comes along and decides whom to kill based on their lineage.