All-in vs. blinds

[David BB]

A very common situation but not much talked about in this forum. I'd like to know what you all think of this push.

Theres a point to this - I'll elaborate later.

Its down to 3 players in a 30$ NL SnG at Party:

100/200 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 3343219) - Fri Apr 23 05:43:02 EDT 2004
Table Table 11038 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 1: colvone (3325)
Seat 4: David_BB (2175)
Seat 10: KCDimondDave (2500)
David_BB posts small blind (50)
KCDimondDave posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to David_BB [ Kd, Jc ]
colvone folds.
David_BB raises (2125) to 2175
David_BB is all-In.

[37offsuit]

It depends on whether third pays anything or not.

[David BB]

Price structure is 50%, 30%, 20% - like always in Party SnGs /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TylerD]

I don't like it, its a huge overbet. In other words you are risking too much to gain the blinds. You are only likely to get called by a better hand, if you're going to play I'd prefer a 3BB raise or 4BB raise, something you can get away from.

[PrayingMantis]

As TylerD said, this is a huge over bet. It might make some sense only if you strongly believe that BB will call you here with an inferior hand. This is not very probable, and since you didn't mention anything specific about BB's calling standarts, this push looks like a mistake.

Blinds are still pretty low, and you are risking more than 2000 to win 150. Much better to raise 3-4xBB.

[josie_wales]

Overkill pal.

You are trying to buy the blinds. You can do that with a 500-1000 rasie. Preferably the lower the better so as to enable you to get away from it.

I prefer in this case, to rasie to 350 or so, then bet 500-600 regardless of the flop.

This way you can:
a) Win the blinds = good
b) See a flop with several hundred in the pot, and take it down with a bet = good
c) Get away after EITHER stage with only at most a 1000 chip loss.

JW

[David BB]

I've been having a bad streak lately - and bad streaks tend to make me wonder if theres anything wrong with my game. If theres anything this must be it!

When blinds go up to 50/100 is when I usually start opening up and becoming more agressive. Problem is that I may be getting a little too agressive a little too early if I have a decent stack. I think I need to wait till blinds are at least 100/200 and were down to at least 4 players before I make moves like these. Do you agree?

I agree with your comments about risking too much to win very little. I hate trying to steal the big blind from the small blind. If I make a smaller raise and get called I'm really in a very bad spot. I'm not a big fan of putting money into a pot where I'll be heads up, out of position, and with a mediocre hand. Thus if I'm going to raise here its all-in. However better options may be to just call so I can get away cheaply if I miss the flop, or simply fold and wait for a better situation.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

KJo is pretty strong 3-handed, but why risk 2175 to win 150? Make it 300-400 to go.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

It might make some sense only if you strongly believe that BB will call you here with an inferior hand.

How inferior can his hand be? Against T9s, you're less than a 3-2 favorite.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Thus if I'm going to raise here its all-in. However better options may be to just call so I can get away cheaply if I miss the flop, or simply fold and wait for a better situation.

First point. Just because you missed the flop does not mean he hit it. You showed aggression preflop. If he checks to you, bet the pot and fold to a raise if you're sure he wouldn't raise unless he has you beat. That costs you 900 or so, and you still have a playable stack. However, most of the time, you'll win more than you will by going all-in preflop. By just calling from the button preflop, you open yourself up to being outplayed. Often a good player in the BB will bet the pot on the flop regardless of his cards *or* what flops.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It might make some sense only if you strongly believe that BB will call you here with an inferior hand.


[/ QUOTE ] How inferior can his hand be? Against T9s, you're less than a 3-2 favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, of course, however, in the improbable case when you know your opponent is weak enough to call all-ins with low Kx, Q-high, J-high, T-high, and low-connectors, pushing with KJo might make sense. I'm sure that's not the case here (this rare and beloved kind of fish don't really get to the final-3 in a 33$ SNG) - that's why pushing here is certainly a wrong move.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

In this specific example, with the chip positions and blind level given, I would not want to risk my whole stack on a 3-2 shot. Given the right circumstances, I would take the gamble in a heartbeat, but not here.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
First point. Just because you missed the flop does not mean he hit it. You showed aggression preflop. If he checks to you, bet the pot and fold to a raise if you're sure he wouldn't raise unless he has you beat. That costs you 900 or so, and you still have a playable stack. However, most of the time, you'll win more than you will by going all-in preflop. By just calling from the button preflop, you open yourself up to being outplayed. Often a good player in the BB will bet the pot on the flop regardless of his cards *or* what flops.


[/ QUOTE ]

Kurn, these are good points you are making, but I think that in our case hero is SB, which means he's first to act on the flop. I agree with your general approach, about raising 3x4BB PF, and trying to take the pot on the flop if called, but David does have a point when he's saying that when trying to steal from SB you have a bad position if called. This is usually not the nicest spot to be in, if you don't hit.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
In this specific example, with the chip positions and blind level given, I would not want to risk my whole stack on a 3-2 shot. Given the right circumstances, I would take the gamble in a heartbeat, but not here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you are right. And there will probably be a better spot to play strong against this very weak opponent.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

David does have a point when he's saying that when trying to steal from SB you have a bad position if called. This is usually not the nicest spot to be in, if you don't hit.

You're right, but I'm more concerned about raising from the SB at a full table than I am 3-handed. Regarding just completing, I don't mind that option as long as you usually bet out on the flop.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

this very weak opponent.

Exactly. If you believe you're the superior player, there's less reason to take risks.

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]

I think I need to wait till blinds are at least 100/200 and were down to at least 4 players before I make moves like these. Do you agree?



[/ QUOTE ]
No. I do not agree. You should not be making moves like this, for all the reasons that have previously been pointed out.

Suppose you bet 150 instead. Would BB call with 72o? with QTo? With AKs? Go through all the possibilites and you will find that $150 - $200 does the job without putting yourself at risk.

Regards,
Jonathan