Getting Crazy : AQs on the Button

[GuyOnTilt]

Empire 15/30. Decent table; not great, but it'll do. SB and BB are both solid players. UTG is too loose preflop, but decent after that. CO is way too loose preflop and tries to be tricky postflop, sometimes ending up overaggressive.

I'm on the Button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, CO limps. Usually there's a raise and rarely this many limpers, so I decide to keep things in order and raise it up. The SB fold, the BB 3-bets, and all the limpers call. I just call. We're 6 to the flop for 18.5 SB's.

Flop comes: K /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

The BB bets out and UTG raises. MP1 folds, MP2 folds, and the CO 3-bets. I call.

Let's stop there for a sec. How'd I do? Just want to make sure you think about it and come to a conclusion before getting more info on my opponents hands. Back to the action!

BB calls, UTG calls. There's 4 of us to the turn for 15 BB's.

Turn comes: J /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets. I call, BB check-raises, UTG folds. CO calls, I call. 3 of us for 21 BB's.

River comes: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, CO raises, I cold-call, BB 3-bets, CO calls, I fold.

Critique as necessary.

GoT

[Nate tha' Great]

We all have hands like this sometimes.

I think you have a fold on the flop, and it isn't close.

[DocHollyday]

hi guy,

I also go with Nate and reccommend to fold the flop. There's nothing to get for you apart from a gutshot. There are 24.5 SB in the pot and you have to put in 3 yourself, which gives you 8/1 pot odds. Of course you could add the additional SB's you get from BB and UTG, but still, you have only 3 clean outs and many redraws.

However, you called the flop. Now the turn offers you another smooth point of exit. No matter what, the board looks that scary now, that you probably should to muck for nothing. possible boats, still a flush draw and meanwhile you don't have any clean outs anymore.

You seem fearless, because I see you still at the river. A ten arrived, but the worst one. You know your hand is worth close to nothing. What I don't get, you coldcall two on the river, but you fold to one more bet, although you get 29/1 on this call. Guy, if you go that far, don't make any expert laydowns for one more bet!

[glen]

"What I don't get, you coldcall two on the river, but you fold to one more bet, although you get 29/1 on this call. Guy, if you go that far, don't make any expert laydowns for one more bet!"

When I read about the folding for one more after the way Got played the flop and turn I almost started twitching, as though my sense of order had been profoundly disturbed. In any case, this is strike two GoT. The first strike was saying the Mikey QTs flop call was okay, but the this one is high heat right at the belt. If you get one more strike, that means you are probably still making bad flop calls.

[chesspain]

I'm just waking up here on the East Coast, but as my cup of coffee makes its way into my bloodstream I'm finding myself agreeing with Nate and Doc. You're getting 8:1 on the flop, but to draw at what?--since you have to believe that your A and Q outs are dirtier than those t-shirts that the obnoxious Australian guy launders on those Oxyclean infomercials. Indeed, without even considering the major action brewing ahead of you on the flop, the fact that the "solid" BB three-bet preflop strongly suggests a hand such as AA/KK/AK/QQ/JJ, all of which dominate your AQ.

Consequently, your only clean outs are the three non-spade tens. Hence, use your position on the button to respond appropriately to the growing fire beneath your feet, and fold.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
The BB bets out and UTG raises. MP1 folds, MP2 folds, and the CO 3-bets. I call.


[/ QUOTE ]
i believe u should be done with ur hand when it is 3 bets to you on the flop. here are my thoughts:

1) u don't have the best hand
2) u have 3 outs
3) it may get capped
4) u might not hit on turn and it will likely be VERY expensive again to draw
5) u might hit on turn and still lose on river boat and flushes

yes, the backdoor flush helps a little, but it's too much trouble. there are 18 (pflop) + 9 (assume all call 3 bet) = 27 SBs in the pot in front of you, require you to call 3 cold. u were getting 9:1, for all the reasons i stated, i believe it's not good enough odds to chase.

Kenny

[The Dude]

Fold the flop. Sure, with implied odds you're okay to call on the basis of a 4-outer, but that has problems. You don't have 4 outs, you have somewhere between 3 and 4. Plus, you may face a cap on the flop, further hurting your implied odds. And finally, even if you hit your T you are facing potential redraws from hands looking to make a flush or full house.

I agree with Nate, the fold isn't close.

[andyfox]

I would have capped pre-flop.
I would have folded on the flop.
I would have folded on the turn.
I would have folded (for the initial two bets) on the river.

Other than that, we would have played it the same. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GuyOnTilt]

Okay, looks like everybody thinks I played this one as badly as I do too. After the hand was over, I went back over the hand in my head, looked at the hand history, and immediately got up from my tables. Bleh. Probably the ugliest hand I've had in quite a while.

Everybody seems to think the flop call is horrendous. I really think it's actually pretty close. But the turn and river are ugly, and I think my biggest mistake in the hand was not capping preflop. Maybe misplayed on every street, although I really do think the flop is close.

GoT

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
"What I don't get, you coldcall two on the river, but you fold to one more bet, although you get 29/1 on this call. Guy, if you go that far, don't make any expert laydowns for one more bet!"

When I read about the folding for one more after the way Got played the flop and turn I almost started twitching, as though my sense of order had been profoundly disturbed. In any case, this is strike two GoT. The first strike was saying the Mikey QTs flop call was okay, but the this one is high heat right at the belt. If you get one more strike, that means you are probably still making bad flop calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

get off the guy's case, here lol. everybody makes mistakes and he just happened to make a few of 'em in one hand, all fairly expensive (except the flop call, thats the ONLY possibly close decision postflop but with 3 to call i fold here as well.)

by the way, GoT, if you ever feel the need to play like this and are sitting with me, please let me know so i can adjust appropriately /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-barron

[bugstud]

I think the backdoor diamonds swings it from a fold to a call. Otherwise, everyone else is more or less right on the misplays. I'm not sure about a preflop cap vs call, but if you cap you;re calling the flop.

Meh.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the backdoor diamonds swings it from a fold to a call. Otherwise, everyone else is more or less right on the misplays. I'm not sure about a preflop cap vs call, but if you cap you;re calling the flop.

Meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with the call on the flop is that I don't think he's considering:

a) The possibility that he could hit his hand and lose to a redraw;
b) Just how expensive it could become to draw to his flush on the turn, even if another diamond comes off.

[Vehn]

You could certainly think the flop call is close, but you'd be wrong.

[Clarkmeister]

"although I really do think the flop is close."

You're wrong.

[glen]

"get off the guy's case, here lol. everybody makes mistakes and he just happened to make a few of 'em in one hand, all fairly expensive (except the flop call, thats the ONLY possibly close decision postflop but with 3 to call i fold here as well.)"

I know we all make mistakes. Yesterday I played like a jackass for about a half hour block. I made awful calls and hopeless bluff raises and I thought "what's going on? Who am I? Why am I playing like a donkey?" So I just kind of collected myself and that was that. In any case, if GoT posted this ahnd and expected to get flamed a bit for calling 3 cold on the flop, that's fine, but I just wanted to point out that along with the response to mikey's posts his flop calls are incorrect, which is criticism that people want when they post. The comment about the river fold was not that it was bad, but I am just saying if I knew a player called 3 on the flop and a checkraise on the turn when the board pairs, I would my life and some of my good friend's that they would also make the river call.

[Iplayragstoo]

Ok, what happened in the showdown..would you have won?

[PuppetMaster]

in no was shape or form was the call even close.

[LarsVegas]

I agree with the flop call. The pot is built pre-flop and you have got multiway action, which suits a draw, even if it's just a gutshot.

The backdoor flush and also, to a very slight extent, the ace overcard evens out the presence of the two-flush.

On the turn I would fold.

lars

[Bubmack]

[ QUOTE ]



The BB bets out and UTG raises. MP1 folds, MP2 folds, and the CO 3-bets. I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm - even if you believe the BB will call the two extra bets you have a 27 SB pot and the call costs 3 or 9-1. Worst Case is you have to call a cap on the way back and the BB does not come along. I think that would be 28-4 or 7-1. Your draw is 11-1 to make the hand on the turn. (I dont care what your odds of making it on the next two cards are since it is very likely to be more than one bet to call on the turn) IMO, If there is any value there it is extremely slim..dont bother with it. Yea you can maybe add another out for your runner runner flush...but we also need to consider that you might hit your str8 and still not win the hand.




[ QUOTE ]

Turn comes: J /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets. I call, BB check-raises, UTG folds. CO calls, I call. 3 of us for 21 BB's.



[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately I think you have to call here. /images/graemlins/frown.gif


[ QUOTE ]

River comes: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, CO raises, I cold-call, BB 3-bets, CO calls, I fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

Now this laydown on the end almost made me cry. You folded to the pot laying 28-1 /images/graemlins/frown.gif I think you will win this pot at least one out of ten times? Maybe 1-15? Call!

bubs

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
I really do think the flop is close.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I really can't see this at all. Hitting a pair with either one of your cards is very likely to be useless. To me, it looks as if you are drawing to nothing more than a gutshot and it's a tainted gutshot at that.

SpaceAce