Not sure if I was smart, stupid, or had quantifiable reasoning here...

[Gomez22]

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($65.90)
BB ($10.25)
UTG ($4.50)
UTG+1 ($31.50)
MP1 ($23.40)
MP2 ($12.45)
MP3 ($11.30)
Gomez22 ($26.90)
Button ($10.15)

Preflop: Gomez22 is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $0.25, Gomez22 calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets $0.5</font>, BB folds, MP3 calls $0.50, Gomez22 calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50.

Turn: ($3.25) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets $0.5</font>, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="CC3333">Gomez22 raises to $5.25</font>, Button folds, SB folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: $9.50
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: $4.75, won by Gomez22.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: $4.75, overbet by Gomez22.</font>


Here's my reasoning for waiting to the turn.. please hammer away if you feel the need:

OK.. first off, I have relatively good position here, I flopped TP with 2nd kicker on a flush-happy board. 2 things to note:

1. SB small bet 2 hands that I knew of: Underpairs to top card on the board and draws. This I know for a fact and he's relatively easy to read in this manner.

2. MP3 played ANYTHING, but especially like the flush draws.. .he was LAGgish, but wouldn't hesitate to push on a draw if he felt he could take it down immediately. He also liked to slowplay and hammer a street AFTER making a hand.

Based on these 2 facts, I felt that if I raised the flop, there was amybe a 20% chance of me taking it down right there, but the chances of getting called by at least 2 opps. were around 15%. I figured that if SB was dogging it for a draw, he wasn't going to go anyplace on a raise, and might likely push behind me to make my call more difficult. Basically the same with MP3... if he's on the flush draw, he's going to move in on me after I raise the flop... no doubt about it. I thought the only way for me to win with a flop raise was for both of them to have either TP with a crappy kicker, or middle pair. Therefore, I decided it best to see the turn cheap, knowing full well I could very well have the best hand on the flop, but might end up with a tough decision if I had raised.

On the turn, I felt that draws were NOT going to call a $5.00 raise, and the only thing I had to worry about were better hands, which by the min-bet and call that came in front of me, I knew weren't there. If SB had a hand, he woulda bet pot on the turn, same for MP3, so I decided to raise it there.

Sound logic? Or was I giving away too much by just calling the flop. I want to make anyone reading this aware that this type of play isn't standard by me, I just thought the situation warranted it here......

'Mez

[Gomez22]

Another thing about hands like the one here.... I feel that I should have raised PF here.... I only had 1 limper to me, and was in CO, but in NL ring games, I find myself limping more often in situations like this than I would in, say... limit games. In a limit game, this would have been an auto PF raise for me, but the implied/reverse implied odds in this type of situation keep me from doing so.

I guess what I'm saying is this:

Would this be a good place to raise with KQo... being in the CO with the only limper in being MP3? I know it can be very VERY player dependant, but for argument's sake, let's assume the limper is an average player for now.....

Thanks!!!

[PokerSlut]

Let me get this straight:

you know that both players are going to call your raise, and possibly even push in all their chips, with many inferior hands for which they don't have correct odds, so you wait until the turn to make a move so they can correctly fold?

[Gomez22]

NO..... Both players would be the types to push or re-raise with draws OR better hands than mine. I'm not saying that they would only do this with draws. If one of them pushed after I raised or even re-raised me, how good does my hand look then? This was a situation where I THOUGHT that 1 of them was very well on a draw, but the other could have a better hand than me in this instance. Maybe both had worse hands or both were on draws? I was just giving my thought process here....

I can't pput either one of them on a hand on the flop... If I had to guess, I would say SB had either MP or a smaller pair than kings in the hole, and MP3 was on the flush draw, but either was the type of player to force me to a difficult decision on the flop if I would have raised.... I didn't want to get my whole stack involved ON the flop with TP2K, and figured that if I acted like the turn improved me or that I was slow-playing, I had a better chance to take it down with no scare cards coming.

Make any sense, or do I need to elaborate more?

[DcifrThs]

it just comes down to this: you are looking for a "correct" way to play NL holdem.

there is none.

if it was one limper to me and i had kxqy and he was tough, id fold. there is no flop that could make me feel comfortable.

if it was one limper to me and i had kxqy and he played like sh*t calling all sorts of crap for 3.75 no matter what then i raise preflop and bet the flop.

if he's a lag i might just call here so as not to be limp reraised. then i'd bet into him on the flop to get him excited and raising so i could call his flop bet, check behind him on the turn, and hopefully call his river all in. lots of folks do that kinda stuff when they sense turn weakness.

but as you can see, there is no correct way to play in that spot, its what is correct at that time!
-Barron

[bunky9590]

Played fine. Don't raise that preflop. You can make a case for it, But I'll limp it there. Nice turn raise.

I'd make that turn rasie there with a lot less than TPGK against a min bettor.

[PokerSlut]

I guess it's your read on the players, but I'd rather raise and force a decision earlier than play soft.

Clearly with a $0.5 bet they are either totally weak and don't like their hand, or they're sitting on a monster. If you honestly believe that they both would have gone all-in over the top to any raise on flop, then so be it, but I don't buy it.

If MP3 always plays his draws that way, why wouldn't he reraise SB's bet on the flop (forcing a decision on both of you) instead of placidly calling?

[Gomez22]

If it were me, and I had players to act behind with a big hand or big draw, sometimes I like to just call in similar situations and hope that someone behind me raises.. not too often, but maybe 5-10% of the time. It's sorta the same thing as limp-re-raising with aces (something I've never done...).

If I were sitting on a nut flush draw in this situation and in MP3's shoes, against 2 bigger stacks, I'd like to see as much money go into the pot ON THE FLOP with 2 cards to come than on the turn with 1 to come, and the turn missing me.... it was just my opinion that this looked like a good situation for a smaller stack to get his money in with 2 to come. Maybe I was thinking wrong at the time, but I had him more than likely on a flush draw (not positive, but it would have been characteristic for this player)