Something to debate? An AQo hand

[sweetjazz]

It's a home game, seven-handed. Opposition can probably be characterized as loose aggressive. CO in this hand is a little loose before the flop, but pretty solid after the flop. Button is tight before the flop, but tends not to release missed hands after the flop. Button also autobets the flop every time when checked around to him (and almost every time when checked around on the turn again), no matter what two cards he has.

I'm UTG+2 and open raise with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO calls two and the button raises. Blinds fold, and it's back to me. I cap. (CO and button call.)

Reasoning for the cap: I know I am out of position, but with an auto-better, this might actually be good for me because I can check-raise a vulnerable hand. Also the button is reasonably tight before the flop, but doesn't adjust sufficiently to raises before his turn to act. Thus, he could hold a hand as weak as KJs or ATo.

Flop comes Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Nice /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I check the flop, CO checks, and button bets. I flat call, as does CO.

Reasoning for the call: There's only one draw out there, and people in the game call down with such bad hands that I figure (1) CO is unlikely to fold to a raise unless the flop has completely missed him, (2) a turn raise might get a fold so I give away a free card with a reward of potentially denying one on the river, or getting a call when a fold would be better from the opponent's point of view.

Turn is 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I check, CO checks, and button bets again. This time I raise. CO calls 2. Button raises. I cap. CO calls 2, button calls.

I think my play here is good. It's opponent dependent, but players in my game still think a turn raise after a flop call means that you must have had nothing on the flop and caught something on the turn. So I figure button will reraise with any Q and maybe even something like A8. Given that CO is calling along (screaming draw), I figure I am gaining EV with my cap.

River is a blank, say 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I bet, CO folds (whines about a missed flush draw afterward), button raises, and I call.

I don't know if there is much to say from this point on. I guess this might be a pretty simple straightforward hand, and given that I am in a home game and so have lots of opponent-specific information, maybe this is not a great hand for debate. But I'd appreciate any commentary I can get.

I'll post results shortly.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm UTG+2 and open raise with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO calls two and the button raises...the button is reasonably tight before the flop, but doesn't adjust sufficiently to raises before his turn to act. Thus, he could hold a hand as weak as KJs or ATo.


[/ QUOTE ]

If three betting an EP raiser preflop with KJs or ATo is what the "tight" players do in this game, I salivate at the thought as to how the "loose" opponents play.

[Joe Tall]

I need a better description of the button to cap preflop and cap the turn. If he's is VERY overagressive and capable of playing a hand like QJs like this then, I like the play.

I've only capped preflop w/AQo twice, each was versus an overagressive opponent who I was sure to make a move on later steets no matter what the board was.

I leaning on the turn cap as overplayed.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
If three betting an EP raiser preflop with KJs or ATo is what the "tight" players do in this game, I salivate at the thought as to how the "loose" opponents play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, here's the read I get. Tight is not the right word to describe him, but I don't know what is. He almost never plays a hand like K7o. But it basically seems like he peeks at his cards, decides whether he wants to call, raise, or fold, and then does so regardless of what happens in the betting before it gets to him.

Given that he plays like, he plays fairly tight. It's probably close to the right tightness in the sense of he probably picks good hands to open-raise with if he were in MP. He limps with some garbage, but not too often. But his decision whether to raise seems to be independent of what other people are doing.

Is this a rarity among typical low-limit players? We play really small limits, and this might be a major reason why he doesn't adjust. It simply doesn't cost him enough to notice and change gears. Anyway, this simple trait is pretty easy to observe (at least in a home game) and I think it is relevant to a fair number of decisions, though admittedly the change in EV is probably pretty small. Still 1/10 or 1/5 or whatever a BB here and there adds up...after you wait out variance. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

(And yes, some players have gone the entire night with the mantra "gotta see the flop". We may have had 90% seen the flop by some players on some nights. Typically people probably see 40-50% of the flops, so the opponent in question is tight relative to that standard of *cough* excellence.)

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
I leaning on the turn cap as overplayed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your feedback.

I definitely would have just called if it was heads-up. The fact that there was a third opponent (who looked like he was on a clear draw) gave me some additional equity. I still admit that you might be right about the turn cap. But my read is that he had a queen or a set or a pocket pair. He is "tight" enough before the flop that his only hands by this point were probably QJs, KQ, AQ, or a PP. With AA, KK, or a set he would definitely raise the turn. I think he would also raise the turn with 99 through JJ, figuring that I must really have 7s since I only called the flop. (He's said something like that before when I popped him on the turn before and he insisted on calling me down to discover I had flopped TPTK.)

If that read is right, it seemed at the table that I was about even money (maybe a little more if he raises with those medium PPs as well) and so with the third player in that the play was slightly +EV.

OTOH, the turn cap might stop him from "value-betting" his worse hands (the "He can't really have anything if he didn't cap the turn" mindset). If that's the case, that might cost me more EV than the amount I gained with the turn cap.