A hand for some comments

[Dieter01]

This is my first hand after sitting down at a 0.5/1 game:

Pacific Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Dieter01 is CO with 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifand has posted blind of 1
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, 4 more calls before me and I check. Button folds. SB raises and everyone calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (8 players)
SB bets, 4 limpers before me and I call

Turn: (10 BB) 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB bets, 3 limpers and I call to

River: (14 BB) Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Checked around

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below:
<font color="white"> SB shows 77 (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: SB wins 14 BB. </font>


My thoughts:

Preflop:
How should I have played this? I had a 15:1 for my call preflop, but should have probably folded anyways. Not to many cards that can help me. But since I was closing the action I figured I would stay in one more and see what happend.

Flop:
Then the flop comes and I am a clear underdog, but there is now so much money in the pot I am getting 19:1. I figure any second two or 8 will put me in the lead so its an easy call.

Turn:
The 5 puts another pair out there, but I am pretty sure the two MPs would have raised if they had three of a kind, and the SB raised preflop so he doesnt have one. He could of course have AA, KK, QQ or JJ though, and making me draw dead on the 8. I call one more on 9:1 odds.

River:
I was a bit surprised when it got checked to me. I thought for a minute I would try to represent the Queen, but with 14BBs out there I was fairly certain someone would have called and just checked it. I was afraid of a check-raise, although in the aftermath I dont think thats very likely the way the hand played out. If I could do it over I would have taken my chances and bet. There is probably more than a 14:1 chance that I would have stolen the pot.


So... Summon up all my mistakes so i dont do em again! (and just for the record I think this is the first time ever I have played a hand like this)

[illunious]

I would fold preflop. I would never fold the flop, I would check-fold the turn and river.

Your thoughts on the flop and the river are very good.

[uuDevil]

I'd have to flop 2 pr or better to feel good about this hand. Odds of that are about 26:1 (I think), so I'd fold pf. Having flopped a pr, it's worth 1 SB to see the turn. On the turn, with the board now paired, hitting your 8 isn't going to win that often, so even getting 13:1 (not 9:1?), it seems like a marginal call. The pot is big, so that does make it more attractive, but I'd be wishing I could go back in time and fold the flop....

[Dieter01]

I thought the odds where 9.2:1 for making the hand assuming that both an 8 or a two would help me (5 outs with 46 cards to go), but I have a 9:1 odds from the pot for calling (which was what I meant to refer to).

Now, I understand that it is very possible my 8 would not be good, so the odds are less than the 9.2. But I also have some odds of them calling me on the river should I hit. So I am thinking it becomes a marginal decision, or?

I have just recently started playing though so I am not overly confident in my odds calcs... Am I wrong?

[MicroBob]

fold PF.
i think the only way to legitamately put money in the pot PF with this hand is if there are a few limps and you are only paying .33 of a SB to complete (if it's a $2 SB on a 3/6 game.....but i dont know that there any with that structure out there).

maybe for .5 of a SB if EVERYONE limps....but i would probably fold here also.

to call a raise like that i would at least prefer they be 3-gapper or less and/or suited. 85o or 82s for example at least gives you a chance of hitting something stronger.


i guess calling the flop is okay with the pot big enough.
fold the turn....
the more i think about it, the more i think a steal on the river may actually be worth a try....afterall, they did all check it through to you. still, it's unlikely they will ALL fold, but even 1 success out of 10 in this spot will be +ev (for 14:1 pot-odds). not only are you representing a Q but you could also be representing a failed and ill-advised slow-play attempt with a 5 or something like that.


just my random thoughts.

[citizenkn]

The flop call was fine, but you should have folded on the turn. Anyone with a five now has you drawing dead, and a larger pocket pair than 88 (although unlikely) has you down to just two outs.....

[DoctorDrew]

The only way to play this hand is to fold preflop. 15:1 for what?!? You need a miracle to take down this hand when 8 go to the flop for 2 bets.

"and just for the record I think this is the first time ever I have played a hand like this"--I hope it is the last.

[chief444]

I agree Doc. You would have to beat me over the head and pry the chips from my hand before I would put even 1 SB into the pot with that hand.

Flop call is good.

Check/Fold the turn.

[SoCalPat]

Am I missing something here? Our hero posted before the cards were dealt. Why are you all advocating he fold PF?

There are compelling arguments for a bet on the flop (although I personally would fold), but there are none for calling on the turn. You have zippo. Get outta Dodge and fold already.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing something here? Our hero posted before the cards were dealt. Why are you all advocating he fold PF?


[/ QUOTE ]

The SB raised PF so he had to call 1 small bet to stay in the pot.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I had a 15:1 for my call preflop

[/ QUOTE ]
No you don't! This is a terrible mistake found in several poker books and repeated by many players.

If you were down to your last $0.50 chip, then by all means put it in the pot. You really do have 15-1 pot odds and you have a better chance than that to win this hand against whoever makes it to showdown.

But assuming you are not a nitwit, you bought in with a proper stack. You are going to have to call several bets to see the turn and river cards and get that showdown. That is money you will often lose. When you consider all the money you will have to invest in trying to win this hand, that final pot is not going to pay back your expenses at 15-1 or anywhere near it.

Look at the actual hand. You should have folded the turn because you are drawing dead to any 5 or 66, have only two outs against an overpair to your 8, and may have to split if you draw a 2. That's a terrible load on your five outs and you need a giant overlay on your pot odds to compensate. By the way you have little or no implied odds. Improving your hand can cost you even more money because you will so often lose anyway.

Nevertheless, folding the turn could lose the hand for you. That 2 might have come and saved your life. That's another reason why hands like 82o are horrible. Even though in magical no-fold'em land they often stumble to victory, in a real game the price of trying is too high. 82 wins when you get lots of 8's and 2's on the board. You usually can't afford to sit around calling bets while you wait for that miracle.

Poker is not so much about having the best hand as having a hand that you can trust to be the best hand. That's where most of the money is made because you can bet and raise with confidence.

[kiemo]

I wouldve folded on the river when it was checked to you as I wouldve been embaressed to show that hand.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldve folded on the river when it was checked to you as I wouldve been embaressed to show that hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is hilarious. That's probably my favorite part of pulling up hand histories, seeing what people muck at showdown.

I agree with the others who say fold PF, if I feel like I need a "perfect flop" to justify calling the raise, it's usually correct to fold.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldve folded on the river when it was checked to you as I wouldve been embaressed to show that hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding right? Heck you have a pair. Call a bet?--no, take a free showdown--yes: everytime. I can't conceive of a situation I would fold for free on the river. 2-3 offsuit no pair? Heck maybe I'm chopping...

--Zetack

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the odds where 9.2:1 for making the hand assuming that both an 8 or a two would help me (5 outs with 46 cards to go),

[/ QUOTE ]
Dieter01,

I think that's (46-5):5 or 8.2:1 odds against making your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
but I have a 9:1 odds from the pot for calling (which was what I meant to refer to).

[/ QUOTE ]
The hand history seems a little messed up because the number of bets don't quite seem to agree with the number of players (if number of players is correct, there should be 10.5 BB in the pot before action starts on the turn). Before the action gets to you, there is a bet and two people call so there should be 3 more big bets in the pot now-- a total of 13.5 BB. You now have a chance to close the betting by calling 1 BB. So your pot odds are 13.5:1, not 9:1.

If you think you have 5 good outs, this is an easy call since 13.5 &gt; 8.2.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, I understand that it is very possible my 8 would not be good, so the odds are less than the 9.2.

[/ QUOTE ]
SB is acting like he has an overpair. If he does, 3 of your outs are no good. (And there are also 3 other players still in the hand.) If you have fewer than 5 outs, this means the odds against making a winning hand are greater than the initial estimate of 8.2:1.

[ QUOTE ]
But I also have some odds of them calling me on the river should I hit. So I am thinking it becomes a marginal decision, or?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are wanting to consider implied odds. If you think hitting an out will win and you will collect extra bets, then you are getting more than 13.5:1 to call that turn bet.

[ QUOTE ]
I have just recently started playing though so I am not overly confident in my odds calcs... Am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your calcs are off but your instincts weren't bad aside from the pf call. I might have folded the turn, but I fold too much. Calling can't be too bad in a big pot, particularly if you thought SB might play overcards this way.

[Zetack]

Your pre-flop odds of hitting two pair are forty something to one. If you throw in the possibility of flopping Trips, quads or a boat, its somewhere around 26 or 27 to one against. You really need something more, like a straight possibility to make this Pf call.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the odds where 9.2:1 for making the hand assuming that both an 8 or a two would help me (5 outs with 46 cards to go), but I have a 9:1 odds from the pot for calling (which was what I meant to refer to).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok on the flop the odds of hitting two pair or trips are 8.4-1 so you're getting the pot odds to make that call. On the turn it goes to 8.2-1. However, the paired five's has counterfitted your two pair draw. Anybody with an eight would have a better hand if you pair your eight and anybody with pocket nines or better would beat you if you paired your eight.

You no longer have a two pair draw. So if you're drawing to an eight you're hoping eights no kicker would be the best hand. Realistically your drawing maybe to 2 outs and even those aren't real clean. You don't have pot odds for a call. Fold em up.

--Zetack