Please Critique Me!

[Shalara]

<font color="9900FF"> Hi! This hand is at a very loose (even for Party) very passive table, and I would like to know if I could have played it better.


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Shalara is Button with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Shalara raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(8 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Shalara calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (11 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Shalara raises</font>, SB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (19 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Shalara bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 22 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG shows Th 6h (one pair, tens).
MP2 shows 8d Jd (one pair, jacks).
Shalara shows 9h 8h (straight, queen high).
Outcome: Shalara wins 22 BB. </font>

[thirddan]

played fine, nice hand...

[sin808]

looks good to me

[thrillhouse]

I definetly like how you played this hand. I think you made a good raise preflop.
-Thrillho

[MicroBob]

"looks good to me"......except for that whole purple-thing of course.

[thirddan]

[sin808]

readability aside /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[StellarWind]

I like purple /images/graemlins/cool.gif. Welcome to the forum.

OK guys, explain to me why you all think the PF raise is a good idea?

The postflop play is perfect.

[kiemo]

Hate the purple.

Think the preflop raise was iffy.

If you believe all will call, then the raise is good as it will give you odds to hang around later and catch huge pots when you hit your well diguised straight.

If you think a raise is going to knock out some of those opponents then its bad.

In this instance it worked perfectly.

I was suprised there wasnt a K9 floating around though.

[Raiser]

I'm not sure about the pre-flop raise either. I understand that it's a value raise if there are enough in the pot on certain suited connectors and/or medium/small pairs, but I'm not sure how many callers are needed. I suppose if it's ever correct to raise with this hand on the button, this would be the time with 5 limpers to you.

On a side note, I think we should all thank the gods for players like UTG. It's easy to complain when they suck out on us, but we should all remember that hands like these are exactly why we want them in our games.

[thirddan]

In LP with a suited connector or good draw type hand like Axs (and occasionally a small pair) is it correct to vary your play (not necessarily to deceive people at this level) and raise these hands preflop...you are attaching players to the pot and making it larger in case you get the type of flop you want (straight/flush/set or good draw) you are manipulating the pot size to benefit yourself, you are making it correct for players to draw at bottom/second pair or other weak draws when they will be drawing dead or near dead to you if you make your hand...

GOT had a hand a couple months bad where EP raised preflop and a bunch of people coldcalled, his question was whether to 3bet or just call with JTs, i think there was some good discussion in that thread (can't remember if was in the SS or HighStake forum...)

[chief444]

First off, I don't think it was a bad play to raise pf. I think it is borderline but not bad. But I'm not so sure I agree with your reasoning.

[ QUOTE ]
is it correct to vary your play (not necessarily to deceive people at this level) and raise these hands preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than deception, I can't think of any real reason to vary your play under given conditions (loose/passive game). Unless you play often with the same people this is not necessary online.

[ QUOTE ]
you are attaching players to the pot and making it larger in case you get the type of flop you want (straight/flush/set or good draw) you are manipulating the pot size to benefit yourself, you are making it correct for players to draw at bottom/second pair or other weak draws when they will be drawing dead or near dead to you if you make your hand...


[/ QUOTE ]

You are also making it correct for yourself to draw at a weaker drawing hand than you would normally continue with.

Raising this pf IMO is not too bad because it may be a +EV play with so many limpers. In other words, you have a better than average chance to win money compared to what the 5 limpers and probably blinds are holding. I don't consider future pot odds when making this play at micro limits nor do I concern myself with varying my play. This is either a good value bet or not.

[ QUOTE ]
GOT had a hand a couple months bad where EP raised preflop and a bunch of people coldcalled, his question was whether to 3bet or just call with JTs, i think there was some good discussion in that thread (can't remember if was in the SS or HighStake forum...)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising JTs is a must in this situation. 89s is borderline.

[thirddan]

raising to vary your play is more useful at higher limits where the opponents are more perceptive and are paying more attention, that is why i qualified my statement saying this is not the primary reason to do this at micros, but by making the pot larger preflop you are attaching people to draws that do poorly if you hit your draw, this is talked about in HPFAP...

[bmedwar]

[ QUOTE ]
In LP with a suited connector or good draw type hand like Axs (and occasionally a small pair)

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying that a small pair is a good draw hand? if so, why? if you miss the flop, you have two outs.

[chief444]

Yes, but this could help or hurt you. I suppose on average you will probably flop a stronger draw than most. I just usually don't consider trying to "manipulate the pot" at the micro limits because the majority of the micro players don't seem to consider pot odds when chasing. I do see your point but I still think this is fairly insignificant in this situation.

I agree also after thinking about it that there would be added value in deception on this particular hand against thinking opponents, whether you play with them regularly or not. Certainly few would consider 8-9 as a possible hand when you raised pf. Even if it were a slightly -EV play the extra bets you may gain from observant opponents could turn it into a +EV play. But it sounds like we agree that at this level it is more or less pointless.

Thanks for the insight. Good posts. I will probably reread the section in HPFAP on manipulating the pot tonight because after giving it some thought I realize that this is something I don't consider enough even when I play at higher limits against better opponents.

[thirddan]

hmmm, that statement is unclear as i just read it again...i meant that it is correct to sometimes raise preflop with hands like Axs and small pocket pairs before the flop after a lot of limpers...Also remember, just because you raised preflop doesn't mean that you the pot more money, you don't have to continue...

[thirddan]

[ QUOTE ]
You are also making it correct for yourself to draw at a weaker drawing hand than you would normally continue with.


[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying that it would have been incorrect for her to see the turn with a gutshot if she had not raised preflop??

If there had been no preflop raise she would still be getting sufficient odds to call the flop bet...

[chief444]

I was just pointing out that the logic of building the pot so very weak draws still have the odds to chase could work for or against you. You could be the one with a weak draw, depending on how the flop comes.

[CardCuda]

Besides the permanently damaged retina this "looks" good, nice hand, (or it looks good after the permanently damaged retina.....either way).

I'll remember to wear shades when reading your posts from now on.... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Shalara]

Purple is my favorite color, but I'll spare your eyes /images/graemlins/cool.gif (and Stellar, I commend your good taste!)

Everyone homed in right away on the big question: was it correct to raise pre-flop with 89s? I must admit I felt a little squeamish about it; I've been following Lee Jones WLLH charts to the letter, and making 2 1/2 BB hr at the micros, which I think is okay. But I wanted to try something new, and this seemed like the kind of table to try it at. He advocates only calling with that hand, btw.

Here's why I thought to try it: if the flop hit me like a brick, I'd love it. Most of the players there are just having fun. Several of them call any two, no matter what, all the way. I was practically the only raiser at the table--unless someone had a lock, the most they'd do is meekly call, and occasionally bet. Flops and straights would be great here! It was a truly beautiful table.

Most likely I'd get a free turn card, too. I was kind of surprised someone bet, actually, since I had raised. There were only a couple people that would have bet into it. I was hoping to control the pot with my raise, &amp; fold if I missed. And if I did hit it, while most don't seem to care about odds, they would call all the way if the pot was big, where a couple might actually drop if it was small.

Here are my concerns: It's not a high flush if it hits. It isn't a nut straight hand, like JT. So I could hit the flop hard, and still lose. It may add unnecessary variation, as most will come whether I raise or just call. The fact that they will call instead of bet (most of the time) if they make some kind of hand makes it harder to read them, too. Though a couple of them would bet whenever they hit a pair, most of them wouldn't, so it would be really hard to tell exactly where I'm at.

I hadn't thought of deception possibilities. There are generally only 1 or two players a table that will pay attention, but every little bit helps; I see those same players nearly every day. So that was an interesting point.

In the end, I couldn't decide whether or not it was good, so I posted it here. I was really pleased to see a lot of my same questions come up, and the responses are very enlightening. I will keep reading them as long as you keep posting /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bisonbison]

You should really consult with me before you loose this purple abomination on the world.

Other than that, the hand was fine. I'm not making that raise preflop, but I'm trying to learn when it's appropriate