bet for value

[bmedwar]

Is this a good definition for a value bet?

bet for value - Bet a hand with the intention of getting called by one or more lesser hands, as opposed to getting the others to fold. Usually implies betting a hand that has only a slight edge, and one that a conservative player would likely check with.

I've read that you should often bet for value in micro-limit holdem games. Why is this? Can you give an example that shows a bet for value in a loose-passive .5/1 game, and how it should be played differently at a tougher game at higher limits? Or is it only a "bet for value" b/c of the nature of your opponents, i.e. weak opponents will call your bet with crappy hands and long-shot draws, so in turn you are betting for value (whereas tough players will fold, so you are betting to keep them from hitting a miracle draw for free).

Or is it that you are presented with a "bet for value" situation, and you would proceed with the bet for value in the loose-passive game, but choose some alternate strategy in a tough game.

[chief444]

You bet for value more in these type of games because weak players will call more often with lesser hands than better players would. Situations often arise where you have a mediocre hand (middle or second pair top kicker for example) and you need to decide whether to bet it or check it through on the river. Tougher opponents will usually only call the bet if they have you beat but will fold if they don't. Therefore it is not a good "value bet". Weaker opponents however will call down with worse hands and it may be a good value bet.

Your definition is a little off. A value bet is not limited to only getting lesser hands to call. A common example is if you hold Ax suited and two of the suit come on the flop. You probably don't have the best hand right now, but you will end up with the best hand about 1 in 3 times. Therefore if you know that you will get 3 or 4 callers (typically a safe assumption in micro games with 5 or more to most flops), then you want to bet for value. There are many of these types of value bets. You need to have a good understanding of how many outs you have and what your chances of catching one of them relative to the number of callers you expect to get (2 callers gives you 2:1 odds on your bet, 3 callers 3:1, etc.).

Keep in mind that "value betting" and determining whether to call or fold based on pot odds/implied odds are two different things.

I would suggest reading through some books or other material on this topic. Once you get a real good understanding of this it should become apparent as to why you end up doing more value betting in micro games.

[bmedwar]

Great explanation, thanks! Two questions...

1.) Is the following correct for the minimum number of callers needed for each draw type for a value bet to make sense?

flush -- 2
straight -- 3
underpair + overcard -- 4
two overcards -- 4
gut shot straight -- 6

2.) Does the same apply to a raise?
Example:
- I flop a 4 flush from the button
- Flop doesn't have a pair.
- It is bet, call, call, call to me
- A call makes sense based on pot odds
- But should I also raise b/c I can expect 4 callers?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
1.) Is the following correct for the minimum number of callers needed for each draw type for a value bet to make sense?

flush -- 2
straight -- 3
underpair + overcard -- 4
two overcards -- 4
gut shot straight -- 6


[/ QUOTE ]

These numbers look close to correct. However the open ended straight and flush draws are most common. I wouldn't recommend "value betting" any of the last three. These I usually look at more in terms of whether I should call or fold based on pot odds and implied/expected odds. You have to be aware of how the board looks in determining what outs are good as well. For example, if there are two diamonds on the board and you have two overcards but neither is a diamond, then you really only have 4 clean outs. The other thing with overcards is you can never be sure that they are clean outs. On the other hand there are extreme situations where you don't have a made hand but are actually the favorite to win. For example if the flop is 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and you hold 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, you may have as many as 21 clean outs (9 for flush, 6 others for the OESD, and 6 overcards). But to answer your question until you get a better feel I would worry mainly about value betting the flush and OESD's. And yes you want a minimum of 2 callers for the flush and 3 for the OESD.

[ QUOTE ]
2.) Does the same apply to a raise?
Example:
- I flop a 4 flush from the button
- Flop doesn't have a pair.
- It is bet, call, call, call to me
- A call makes sense based on pot odds
- But should I also raise b/c I can expect 4 callers?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this concept applies to raising as well. Just be aware of where the bet comes from. In other words, in your example I would definitely raise on the flop. This is a good value bet with two cards to come and may give you a free card on the turn (with one card to come your odds of catching the flush on the river are now reduced to less than 1 in 5, as opposed to 1 in 3 with two cards to come so you usually do most of your value betting for drawing hands on the flop). However, if the initial bet comes from you right and there are a few opponents left to act, you may want to just call. If you raise and make it two bets to everyone then they are more likely to fold.

There is a lot to consider but with a good understanding to start with and enough playing experience these plays become second-nature. Hope this helps.