When They Open-Limp on the Button

[andyfox]

In smaller games, it's usually an unsophisticated player who has a pretty good, but not great hand.

In the bigger games, it can either mean the above or a trap.

40-80. There's a pretty wild player in the game. He's limping about 2/3 of the time, and then limp-reraising about one out of every three times he's limped. The only times he is raising right away is when he's in late position and everyone else has folded. Post-flop, he's loathe to throw a hand away, but he's not a totally unthinking player. There are a few walkers (and indeed, walking has increased since Commerce went to a rake instead of a time collection) and he has the button on my big blind.

Everyone folds and he limps. The small blind, expecting a raise, looks like he is folding, then sees he has only limped, and calls. I look at my first card and see it is a 2. I check.

Flop is A-A-2 rainbow. Small blind checks, I bet and button calls.

Turn is a 4 completing the rainbow. I bet and button raises. I look at my second card, which is an 8.

Call, raise, or fold?

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
since Commerce went to a rake instead of a time collection

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, no! does that tighten the games up? because i have experienced an raked 20-40 game and it was tight as hell, but maybe it's just foxwoods, or maybe i was just there on the wrong day...

but i think it definitely benefit a tight player like you tho...

Kenny

[talkinghead]

If he saw an ace or pocket pair in his hand he would have popped your blinds pre-flop (probably).
Think the best play is just to call him down, you might be giving him a free chance to beat you on river by not raising turn but he'd call another bet anyway so if he beats you, he just beats you.

[andyfox]

It should tighten the game up, but it hasn't, at least in my limited experience since they went to the rake. skp told me the games are unbelievably good at night; his opinion is to be respected, so it would appear there's been no tightening up.

And yes, as Rick Nebiolo has pointed out both here and in response to Speed Racer on RGP, the new policy favors the nits.

[cosmo kramer]

Based on your player description, I'd lean towards him having a big hand. I'm assuming he tends to open-raise from late position a lot, so I'm sure they are not all quality hands. When he just calls on the button, he wants more than the blinds on this hand. I fold, next hand.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is a 4 completing the rainbow. I bet and button raises. I look at my second card, which is an 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

The image of you "re-"checking your hole cards on this board amuses me -- I think it important you do this slowly and with a very serious expression. I wouldn't bet the flop/turn and I'd fold here.

PS. I assume the punchline is that you had him outkicked.

[elysium]

hi andy
it doesn't look too good. it just looks like he's slow-playing pre-flop, like he wants customers. why doesn't he steal raise? i just don't like it. you shouldn't have bet the flop this one anj. i'm very scared.

[mike l.]

i would not even consider continuing with the hand on the turn nor would i have bet the flop. it's an easy check-fold on the flop and it's not close. you need to take into account the size of the pot. if youre going to tell me you flopped aces up and you were trying to build a pot, dont bother, were paying attention this time.

seriously it really bums me out that you would waste $40 on the flop here and then $80 more on the turn although it's really on the flop with the bet that you lose control of the hand. sounds like some of the button's wildness rubbed off on you. sit further away from him next time.

the broader picture: a weak new player to our 20-40 down here openlimped on the button today, the sb folded, and i had had my back turned ordering food. the dealer said it's your option and i asked who's in wincing at the tiny pot he had in front of him, a pot that was about to lose $4 down a bottomless hole as soon as we saw a flop. the dealer said just him and pointed at the button. i scowled and said "limping in on the button?!" with hatred and disgust in my voice and then raised without looking at my cards. so that's how i think button openlimpers should be treated: with complete contempt like the trash they are.

[J_V]

It's hardly ever a trap and almost always two cards below 9.

[Gabe]

This seems like the type of player who would be aware of the fact that you are a tight player and if you noticed the SB looked like he was going to fold, the player noticed, too. It looks like a dab of peanut butter, on a piece of metal in the attic, to me.

Even if I’m wrong and he limped on the button with a couple wheel cards, he now most likely has a better hand than yours now and it will be hard to wrestle the pot away from him.

I can sort of see the stab at it on the flop, but the turn bet I can’t.

This only looking at one card before you act seems like an interesting way to play, but I’m pretty sure you’ll have better results, over time, if you look at them both.

[JimRivett]

Well Andy, I've never known you to do anything completely irrational (not at the poker table anyway), and it can't be the last hand of the session because you paid the blind (Andy likes to play the last hand prior to leaving), so you had to feel your hand was good.

I have mixed emotions here, of course I want you to have the best hand, if so I sure hope you don't play every hand by only looking at the first card /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Jim

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
I want you to have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim, ya softie. Even when he's good the guy has 9 outs. I want him to get shown quads and pause to recheck his hole cards on the river.

[rigoletto]

Don't bet the turn. He'll only call the flop with either a better hand or a move in mind and if you think he's likely to make a move, why give him the upportunity.

Does check/calling the turn and check/folding the river sound totally unreasonable or would he really bluff the river after you bet the flop and call the turn?

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
if you think he's likely to make a move, why give him the upportunity

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone is likely to make a move, you should give them the opportunity. Besides, a 3-bet might knock him off KK. <cough>

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you think he's likely to make a move, why give him the upportunity

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone is likely to make a move, you should give them the opportunity. Besides, a 3-bet might knock him off KK. <cough>

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are more than 60% likely sure, but not if it just gives you a headache on the turn with a very weak hand. Besides a turn check could induce a bluff from the tricky bastard.

I hear cough syrup is good against upportunistic 3-bets /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[andyfox]

"It looks like a dab of peanut butter, on a piece of metal in the attic, to me."

What a great turn of phrase!

"I’m pretty sure you’ll have better results, over time, if you look at them both."

No one could ever accuse you of not being a gentleman. /images/graemlins/smile.gif At least I saw 80% of my hand when I bet the flop. Two of the best players here sometimes bet the flop blind, when they've only seen 40%. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[andyfox]

"with hatred and disgust in my voice and then raised without looking at my cards. so that's how i think button openlimpers should be treated: with complete contempt like the trash they are."

It's not good to hold it in, mike, let it out, tell us how you really feel. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was pretty sure I had the best hand on the flop and, when you check the results, you'll see that I did not waste $80 on the turn, but rather $160.

I was actually somewhat farther away from him than the post would suggest, as there were two walkers between him and me. I'm starting to have increased problems both seeing the board and my hole cards, so I tend to favor seats 1,5 and 9 no matter the way the others play.

[andyfox]

I just couldn't imagine this guy not raising with a pocket pair or any hand with an ace in it. No way, I thought, A-A-2 hit him at all. And I thought he thought no way it hit me either.

Nor did the turn card seem likely to have helped. I never considered folding, but did consider raising to keep him from drawing out. But there have been times recently where I was sure such-and-such player "couldn't" have such-and-such hand, so I opted to just call and resolved to call him down.

The river was a 6. I checked and he checked behind.

And My Hand Was Good.

[shemp]

Does the Never Been Bluffed Club have a secret handshake?

[Gabe]

To tell the truth I was pretty sure you won the hand because you posted it, but the point, I guess, is why does he make a move on the turn and not try to steal before the flop? I see this alot, too. Do they think it's better to try to bluff you out of a bigger pot? As far as I amconcerned, it's so much easier to steal my blinds than a big pot. Let's call these guys weak limpers/strong turners.

[andyfox]

Good points. I think they like being tricky. Note that this guy limp-reraised quite a bit. Especially in the 40-80, a lot of players love the turn raise, with or without a raise-worthy hand. They love the feel and look of picking up all those chips and stringing them out, rapid fire, in four piles. They like to impress you by leaving off only three on the last pile when they accidentally drop five in the penultimate pile.

He could/should have noticed (this happened after we had both been in the game a while) that I'm not loose with my blind defense, nor was the small blind. And indeed he would have stolen the blinds with a pre-flop raise.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
At least I saw 80% of my hand when I bet the flop. Two of the best players here sometimes bet the flop blind, when they've only seen 40%.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I'm still looking at the cards I had on the prior hand /images/graemlins/grin.gif