Ooh mickey you so tricky

[Nate tha' Great]

You're in a midlimit game with 6 players at the table. A player that is completely unknown to you open-raises UTG. You are the lone caller in the BB with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

The flop is Q64 rainbow with none of your suit, you check and he checks.

The turn is a 9.

Easy check-fold?

[Vehn]

y

I would fold preflop also.

[kiddo]

Yep, only reason for a decent player to not bet this flop would be because his hand has no problem with giving a free card.

I think it was Mason Malmuth that in one of his essays - I am to tired to find it now - said that with the last years enourmos growth of Texas Holdem it is a misstake to think that an unknown player is a decent player.

In my normal 5/10 this is true. But that is lowlimit.

[NLSoldier]

I prefer folding into him /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer folding into him /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually used to do exactly that, but in general I don't think it's smart to let your opponents know that you're on to their trickery.

[Your Mom]

The really passive players never bet if they don't have a pair. Of course, they will check the turn as well if that is the case.

[James282]

No way dude, he didn't be the flop so he has no pair! If he raises it's a bluff!!

Easy check-fold. People are so obvious.
-James

[Schneids]

Am I the only one perfectly capable of raising PF, getting it heads up, and then checking the flop with missed overcards? ...Without intending to be 'tricky'?

[James282]

I will do this once in a while against tricky opponents if I have a hand like ace high which has showdown value. But in general, you can often win the pot quite easily with a bet on the flop, and I think the value of winning it right there outweighs the value of drawing to your overcards, especially since, as the preflop raiser with overcards, you will often have the best hand even if the flop "misses" you. Your bet might not just win the pot, but it might gain value from a call as well. I think you are probably giving up a lot if you frequently check behind the flop after raising preflop---better to play aggressively when heads up than play like you are on a draw, IMO.
-James

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I will do this once in a while against tricky opponents if I have a hand like ace high which has showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]
Me too. This is the main situation I would.

[blackaces13]

Everyone seems to think fold. Can't UTG easily have, AK, AJs, AJo, KJs, 88, 77, or even JTs since he's a total unknown and its shorthanded? Even if he's got pocket aces you've got 5 outs, not good but nor are the chances he has an overpair. And since the player is unknown who is to say he doesn't have complete garbage or he's advertising? I think I would call him down from here just to see what he had and determine if he is rational, a lot of players are not.

[James282]

Irrational players bet the flop every time after they raise. A lot of decent players will check behind the flop after they raise when they flop a hand like a set, or even TPTK if it is heads up. You do not have the odds to draw to two pair or 3 of a kind, even if that is a live draw.
-James

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to think fold. Can't UTG easily have, AK, AJs, AJo, KJs, 88, 77, or even JTs since he's a total unknown and its shorthanded? Even if he's got pocket aces you've got 5 outs, not good but nor are the chances he has an overpair. And since the player is unknown who is to say he doesn't have complete garbage or he's advertising? I think I would call him down from here just to see what he had and determine if he is rational, a lot of players are not.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's sort of the question. What is the ratio of unnecessarily tricky opponents to unnecessarily passive opponents in these games? (My guess is about 4:1, which is not enough to call here).

And how much do I gain in terms of information value by seeing what he has? (If I were assured of playing another 1,000 hands against him, it seems that the call might be more worthwhile).

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
And how much do I gain in terms of information value by seeing what he has? (If I were assured of playing another 1,000 hands against him, it seems that the call might be more worthwhile).


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting point, Nate. I think if you play 1000 more hands with him you will learn how he plays in these situations without learning the hard way yourself. I also think that if he is passive, he is going to let you see a showdown even if you check to him on the turn, as his "unimproved big cards" still didn't improve when the 9 came. I think a bet from him on the turn is all the information you need, unless he is somewhere in that "middle ground" of passivity, in which case your point about information gaining is worthwhile.

[ThinkQuick]

I think that if he wants to fold it dosen't look bad at all.

He calls the raise from the BB, and is unknown to UTG.
He could have any number of hands that miss the flop and turn and therefore would fold to a bet.