I'm a fish

[hansarnic]

$3/6 on Stars. We're 4-handed and I'm in the SB with AKo ($500).

UTG ($600) raises to $24, button ($350) re-raises to about $65 . I call & so does UTG. Comments?

Flop is K /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

How best to play it?

I decide to check & so does UTG. Button bets about $80 into a $200 pot. He may have a huge hand but I think I'm winning so I determine to find out by raising another $150. UTG calls $230 cold. Oh s**t. Button folds.

Turn is A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Pot is now over $700. I check it & UTG puts me in for about $190. I know I'm beaten so I do the sensible thing & fold. Except that for some reason I don't.

JJ as expected. What a godawful mess....

[deacsoft]

Lose what ever reason made you call. You'll save a lot of money. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Garland]

AKo or AKs for that matter is a good drawing hand or good bluffing hand. If you go all-in, yuu hope your opponent folds, but if he/she doesn't, you should have a draw to top pair.

When it's raised and reraised to you, you should be prepared to dump AK because it's highly likely you're up against a made hand in a big pair.

Garland

[turnipmonster]

I used to make big mistakes like you almost made too. on the turn, with 890 in the pot and you having top two and only 190 left, folding is a very big, very bad mistake. your $150 raise on the flop means you put in more than half your stack there (230 total). that is a pot sticking move, and as such you are now pot stuck.

personally I don't like the flop play at all. if you are going to raise 150 on the flop then you have to call the turn, but your opponent is giving you cheap odds to draw. first question to ask is, "why is my opponent giving me cheap odds to draw?". next question to ask is "do I really want to get my whole stack in here?". by your response I'd guess your answer is no. so don't make a raise that essentially forces you to put the rest of the money in.

I probably would have gotten the money in on the turn also, but that might not make you feel any better /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

--turnipmonster

[cornell2005]

interesting hand. i feel like i lose alot of money in situations exactly like this also.

i see why turnips saying he could just call the flop, so he doesnt make himself pot committed. but then what? what if utg (or whatever the JJ guy was) just called. so its 3 handed and your in the middle, what do you do when the button checks? when the button bets? seems like its inevitable to get yourself pot stuck here.

who would call the flop, and who would raise? is it a situation that its inevitable to lose your stack, and you should come to grips with that if against JJ? im sold taht you would reluctantly have to call the turn, but still not sure about the flop play.

[hansarnic]

The reason I think folding on the turn may be best is that I'm sure he has a set. The A only gives me 4 outs (possibly).

The reason I called was in the hope he might also have AK. But he's a solid player. I would expect him to bet the flop when I checked it to him and would not expect him to cold-call the re-raise with AK. What else can he have? I agree the pot is huge, but that's not always a reason to call if you know you're beaten.

I also think folding preflop is not a horrible option even though we're only 4 handed.

I'm really not sure what the best play is on the flop.

[Ezcheeze]

Did you have the Ac? If UTG had AcQc then he might play the hand this way. Raising preflop, just calling the raise on the flop trying to entice the button to play. Semibluffing on the turn after you show weakness, or maybe he thinks his pair of A's is good. If this player would play AcQc this way then i think you have a deffinite call.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Call me weak-tight, if I *call* with AKo when its been 2 bet in front of me, I'm hoping to see a flop of AAK/QJT/ a monotone flop of either of my suit, at least then I have outs I know are good.

You should have raised or folded. Your going 3 handed into a pot where its likely the 2 other people have AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK and you will be out of position so you wont be able to get a free card if you miss the flop and if you check-raise you still have to worry MP set a trap. If you bet and are raised your in the same position. You dont want to see a flop 3 handed when its been reraised.

Your sunk when the flop comes KJx as your only ahead of *1* that 2 of your opps probable holdins and tied with 1 other.

If you had just called there might be a chance everyone checks sure their set/pair is beat. Maybe I'm giving my opps to much credit, but when its raised so big PF I'm thinking big pairs and seeing a KJXA board 3 handed I'm not sure my set is good.

MarkV.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
i see why turnips saying he could just call the flop, so he doesnt make himself pot committed. but then what? what if utg (or whatever the JJ guy was) just called.

[/ QUOTE ]

say we called the flop. if it goes check, check, bet, call, raise allin, then you can fold it. we are only getting 2 to 1, and all we have is a pair. not such a great situation, but I'm comfortable folding there.

if UTG smooth calls in that spot (which I think is a bad play, anyone agree?) then there's 440 in the pot and we have ~360. we can fold to an all in if the turn blanks at this point too, if we're pretty sure we're beat.

related question: who considers moving in if the turn is a club? I never make plays like this, but have a feeling good players sometimes do.

point being, not raising the flop gives you some breathing room. a call scared the hell out of the original poster, so I don't see the point of a raise if a call is going to make you feel sick, unless it's a stone bluff, which this is not.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

it's mainly the flop raise I don't like. I agree that you hate him cold calling the raise, and as such, why make it? by raising to 230 straight on the flop, you are committing most of your stack relatively early in the hand. it sounds like if anyone does anything other than fold, you are probably playing for a split or badly beat. so basically your raise seems like a stone bluff to me. and I just don't understand a stone bluff here.

[ QUOTE ]

I also think folding preflop is not a horrible option even though we're only 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. with a raise and a reraise, you're going to be playing for a lot of chips. deciding to fold no pair out of position wouldn't be a bad choice at all.

--turnipmonster

[The Gift Of Gab]

How aggressive are your opponents? If the first raise means at least a decent hand and isn't a standard open I wouldn't get involved preflop. Playing AK out of position in a 200 pot with 3-500 behind will involve playing for the rest of the money with TPTK pretty often.

Turnip's right that you're getting yourself pot stuck by checkraising the flop. If you want to preserve the option of getting away or playing a smaller pot you have to just call the flop bet. The button will have more weak hands than monsters.

It looks like UTG has a big hand but couldn't he have AK, KJ, or a bunch of draws too? I would have bet the turn.

[crockpot]

why did you call preflop? i think you are going to have trouble winning consistently at 3/6 if you can't lay down AKo out of position to this action, assuming your opponents aren't maniacs or players who get absolutely married to pocket pairs.

as for your raise "to find out if you're winning". what hand can you beat on the turn that you couldn't beat on the flop? (i'm going to rule out KJ or any other two pair on the assumption your opponents aren't morons.) if you weren't winning on the flop, you aren't winning now. so either you made this raise for the wrong reason, or you didn't follow through on your read after making it. if you think you have a reasonable chance of being ahead on the turn, bet all in to charge a drawing hand like A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif, rather than checking and calling.

[The Gift Of Gab]

they're playing four-handed, and in a lot of aggressive s/h games the opener will come in for 3-4x bb with any hand he chooses to play. if this is the case then ak could easily be better than the button's hand. if open-limping is standard i muck ak there.

[crockb00n]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you are going to have trouble winning consistently at 3/6 if you can't lay down AKo out of position to this action

[/ QUOTE ]

isnt this your biggest leak bud?

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]


You should have raised or folded. Your going 3 handed into a pot where its likely the 2 other people have AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK and you will be out of position

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that likely they only have AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK. It's a short-handed game, not a full ring. Hugely different. I like my chances with AK if I flop A or K.

The reason to fold pre-flop is not because I might be dominated, but because my posiotion minimises my winnings and maximises my losses.

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to make big mistakes like you almost made too. on the turn, with 890 in the pot and you having top two and only 190 left, folding is a very big, very bad mistake. --turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]


Hmmmm. Having calculated it, this is closer than I thought. I think I'd still weigh JJ as the most likely holding, but even if I do calling is only very slightly EV- here.