In which I realize that I have no f'ing clue how to play NL

[JSD]

As I mentioned in my other post a few moments ago, I'm a limit player and this evening was my first ever foray into NL ring games. The following hand happened on Party $25 shortly after I lost my initial buy-in when my flopped set of Queens got flushnotized. So I think I was feeling a little overwhelmed.

We're temporarily 6-handed I am dealt A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif in MP. UTG limps and I make it $2 to go. The button calls, blinds fold and UTG limper folds. Button has me covered.

Flop comes A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, giving me TPGK and 3 to the nut flush. I bet the pot ($5) because I read somewhere that if you always bet the pot, you wouldn't be too far off from the correct strategy. And anyways, I'm hoping to take it down right there. Thats the beauty of NL, right? You can protect your made hands with big bets, right? The button calls. Hmm...

Turn is the 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, so now I've got TP and the nut flush draw, but the board has paired. This is where all hell breaks loose in my pea-sized limit-playing mind. This is a no-brainer bet in limit and its not even close. But now I've got this goofy little slider thing in front of me and I'm frozen like a deer in headlights. Somewhere in the back of my mind a voice is saying "bet the pot. bet the pot." so i slide the little thingy over towards a pot-sized bet. But thats like 80% of the way towards the end. So I slide it ALL the way over and the voice starts saying "all in! all in!". But then I think that can't be right - what if he's setting a trap. What if that heart just gave him a made flush? Or what if he has a nine? MONSTERS start appearing: the "Losemystackasaurus" slowly crawls out from under the bed while the "Flushopotomus" lumbers through the door. Meanwhile, Party is beeping like mad at me and I've got 5 seconds to hit a button. So I do the unfathomable (in limit anyways): I check.

And in the most anti-climatic way, he also checks.

The river brings some variety of unmemorable non-heart garbage and I decide that since I've gotten so good at it, I'll check again. Villian checks behind, shows a pair of eights and MHIG.

Now, I don't know much about no-limit (as you've no doubt figured out by now) but I know enough to know that I didn't play that hand very well.

I guess the big guestion is what should I have done on the turn. I made a pot-sized bet on the flop and he called. So now the pot is big enough that making another pot sized bet puts me almost all-in. Should I go ahead and push? Should I have bet more on the flop? Was button correct to call my flop bet hoping to spike a set (I don't think so, but what do I know)?

Bleh. This slider thing is has me all confuzzled.

BTW, thanks for your patience, no-limit folks. I'm sure you get these kind of stories from hapless limit players all the time. I promise I'll start going back and reading lots of posts in this forum and stop posting silly newbie questions now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tilted Litt]

I had issues with that damn slider too, until I found out, you can just type in the number, makes it much easier.

Anyways, I would've probably have only bet about 5 or 10 dollars on the turn based on my feel of the table at that time. Just to see what the other person was on. I believe the rule is if the bet sets you 2/3 or 3/4 in, you should go all in.

Give it another shot. You will need to play much tighter than limit, but you'll find your good hands usually pay off (except for my AA which won the blinds, but hey, they lose 60% of the time, so a win is a win =P ).

[tewall]

You need to have an overall plan regarding your hand. That's more important than the individual actions, and will make your decisions easier.

In the particular game your playing in, and at the stack sizes you were probably playing at, your hand was probably worth going to the felt with. So once you make the decision that your committed to your hand, your question becomes what's the best way to get the money in.

It's really impossible to discuss the play of your hand without knowing the stack sizes of the parties invovled. Take a look at the other posts, and you'll get an idea of the information that should be provided.

The stack sizes are critically important. For example, if there was enough left, you might be best to push so as not to give your opponent the right price to hit a draw. If there's not enough for that, you might be better off making a smaller bet, since all the money's going in anyway, to make it difficult for your opponent to get away from his hand if he's behind you. You might want to avoid a situation where a big bet only gets called if you're behind.

Actually that situation isn't likely as most people will call with anything, so when in doubt and you think you're ahead, push hoping to get called by someone with trash.

Your post has great style and humor, so I hope to see more.

[Crispyk]

Man this post is freaking hilarious, I do the unfathomable and check. Lol.... I just couldn't stop laughing after i read that. Well written my friend. As for the situation, I think i would have bet about half the pot on the turn, maybe even less. I find that the smaller bets work best for situations like this for many reasons. 1. You'll get information IE if he reraises you. 2. Small bets look like your slowplaying and value betting which scares the hell out of most low limit no limit players. 3. You may take the pot right there if he doens't have the flush and the thinks you do. Checking is obviously the next best answer becuase you still have the nut in the Q of hearts so another heart only helps you. You didn't play the hand too badly, although I think checking it down through the river was probably a bit defensive. Try not to play scared, selective aggression is the best way to win the most pots. The best advice i can give you is to read this forum and play a heck of a lot of no limit. Its helped me alot, I also find that the sit N go tourneys help in my no limit game becuase you get a taste of all sorts of things, Shorthanded, Playing when someone's all in. Stuff like that. Just my opinion, GL with your game man! HOpe to read more of your hilarious posts on here!

[jdl22]

[ QUOTE ]
1. You'll get information IE if he reraises you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think at this level that may be fine. However, I feel like I have exactly one no limit skill and that is betting a huge amount when my opponent is weak and a scare card comes. If I were the villain here and it was checked to me or a small bet as you've described was made then most likely my chips are in the center with my bottom pair bottom kicker or worse.

So in short you can get information but it's not very reliable against reasonable opponents. Furthermore, I think that checking and making a small bet get the same thing accomplished, but checking is free and if you can get the same job done for free then you might as well.

I also share the opinion that the original post was hilarious.

[cornell2005]

great post. hope you stick with NL and make most posts in this forum

[Crispyk]

[/ QUOTE ] However, I feel like I have exactly one no limit skill and that is betting a huge amount when my opponent is weak and a scare card comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except what do you do when the "scare card" is the card that the other opponent needed, and now your huge bet is out there and he reraises you. That leaves you with a big hole in your stack and you with a pretty crappy decision coming up. By betting small you limit your losses when your guessing wrong.

[bunky9590]

My limit numbers are 18%-24% with the blinds (flops seen)

and 28%-30% in NL 100 and 200 max. I am CRUSHING the NL games. If the games are passive you can play boat loads of hands.

[JSD]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and encouragement.

[ QUOTE ]

It's really impossible to discuss the play of your hand without knowing the stack sizes of the parties invovled.


[/ QUOTE ]

I had around $25 and he had around $60. BB is $.50.

So here's a fundamental question I have about NL:

After I raised pre-flop and bet the pot on the flop, I'm down to about $17. On the turn, the pot is about $15. So to make another pot-sized bet, I'm pretty much committing my whole stack. If I make a small bet, I'm thinking the big stack may view that as weakness and put me all-in and I pretty much have to call.

So long as I've got a stack size around the buy-in, it seems that pretty much any big hand (TPTK or better) I get, I'm going to have to commit my stack at some point. And unlike limit, theres little or no room to "gather information" through the back-and-forth betting process.

Using this hand as an example, in limit, I lead on the turn and if he raises the turn I start to think I could be in trouble, although I don't really mind since I've got a draw to the nut flush. I can call his raise and see what the river brings and play it from there. But in NL, if I make a bet on the turn, theres a good chance I'm going all-in without having any clue what my opponent has or what the river will bring. Its an entirely different game, isn't it?

[jdl22]

I see what you are getting at. The thing I'm saying is that if you bet small you are inviting the guy to put his chips in and put you to a tough decision.

What you are saying is the exact reason it can be so good to bet on scare cards, it's hard to deal with.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Would you agree with the statment that if you play well post flop and the blinds are small compared to the size of the stack you can afford to play more hands? Even pure crap hands in limit, say 76o on the button as long as its a passive table?

[bunky9590]

Crap hands in limit are just that, crap. It's not about stack size. (NL is a different story in the name of implied odds)

Four words to playing low limit holdem.
BIG CARDS AND POSITION

67o is complete cheese in limit, but in NL with deep stacks, it can be a call or raise against passive opponents.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I meant 76o is crap in limit, but can be playable in no limit. that was what my example was with the deep stacks and such.

[bunky9590]

Its late and I just took 3rd in a UB tourney to get into the 300+15 Aruba super. So I'm going to bed.