Three pre-flop decisions

[Soggy Salmon]

These weren't all from the same table, but just say they are at a standard Party .5/1. 1 loose-aggressive, 1 tight-aggressive, 3 weak-tight, 4 loose-passive players and me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

1. Hero is BB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif. EP raises, 4 people call, Hero?

2. Hero is CO with Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif. 4 players limp, LP raises, Hero?

3. Hero is SB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. 2 early limpers, one raise in MP, rest fold, Hero?

[illunious]

1. Call

2. Fold

3. Call

I would consider reraising the loose-agressive player in #3 and calling him in #2.

If one of the raisers is passive, folding 3 may be ok, but I always call at $.50/$1.

[thirddan]

Hand 1: Call

Hand 2: Fold

Hand 3: Call/3bet

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
These weren't all from the same table, but just say they are at a standard Party .5/1. 1 loose-aggressive, 1 tight-aggressive, 3 weak-tight, 4 loose-passive players and me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

1. Hero is BB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif. EP raises, 4 people call, Hero?

2. Hero is CO with Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif. 4 players limp, LP raises, Hero?

3. Hero is SB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. 2 early limpers, one raise in MP, rest fold, Hero?



[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 call
Hand 2 muck
Hand 3 If it's the maniac I reraise and lead on most flops.
A tight raiser I fold
Unknown gets a call.

[StellarWind]

1. Call
2. Call
3. Fold

When deciding to play on against a raise you are looking primarily for two things: 1) a likely better hand or 2) a hand with strong potential to make a big hand that you can play against many opponents.

With five opponents and position I'm willing to give QJs a chance to hit a home run. On the other hand, AQo is a pair-making hand. I have no interest in paying 1.5 bets to be out-of-position and frequently dominated. Even if I flop an ace or queen I won't feel comfortable while I'm playing the hand.

It does matter who your opponents are in making these decisions. Look for these in particular:

1. The aggressiveness of the raiser.
2. Coldcallers who are certain to have a very good hand.
3. Players yet to act who are likely to "join the party".

[citizenkn]

1. Call
2. I'd fold if there were only 1-2 people in the pot, but with 4 limpers likely to call this raise, I'd definitely play this for the strong draw possibilities.
3. Re-raise....you'd rather play this one heads up, I think, and a re-raise would help knock out the limpers and the BB.

[Tosh]

1) I'd probably call but a 3 bet is at least a little bit tempting.
2) How likely is a 3 bet? If you suspect there's any chance easy fold, if no chance I might take a peak. On balance a fold but there are situations where I'll call.
3) I 3 bet to try to get it headsup.

[spamuell]

Good post, I completely agree with everything you said (as usual).

Seasoned player slavic gave different actions to the ones that you gave, but I think your correct in your assessment of AQo from the SB facing a raise. Those who say 3-bet to get it heads-up are on crack, you won't get this heads-up. And even if you do, 2/3 of the time you're not flopping a pair and where do you go from there given you're out of position against a possible/likely better hand? (Obviously whether your opponent capped will affect this decision.)

I think that folding QJs with position after four limpers and a raise is giving up too much.

[Myst]

1. Call - ATs plays well multiway.
2. Call - QJs plays well multiway and with position, I advocate cold calling.
3. Fold - 3 Betting with AQ is a serious mistake as this pot will not go headsup at a typical .5/1 Party game. AQ is a hand that suffers multiway b/c you have to make a pair, and sometimes that pair is dominated.

Basically in these loose Party games, you want to play hands that work well in multiway pots for as cheaply as possible. However, if there are a lot of limpers in for a raise, I am a strong advocate for cold-calling due to huge implied odds.

[MicroBob]

i call the first one....no-brainer.
the 2nd one i call also....not quite a no-brainer, but as someone said, this kind of hand can hit a home-run.

the 3rd one i initally thought re-raise....then read a few of the responses and started to alter my thinking a bit.
then, as i was thinking about this and finishing the last response to this thread i got this hand that i probably mis-played.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: MicroBob is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, MicroBob calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players) </font>
SB checks, MicroBob checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Turn: (7 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">MicroBob bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds.

River: (10 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">MicroBob bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Button folds, MicroBob calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 14 BB, between MP3 and MicroBob.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MicroBob (14 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MicroBob shows Qs Ac (one pair, aces).
MP3 shows Ah 4c (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MicroBob wins 14 BB. </font>

[GuyOnTilt]

I was disturbed when the first 3 responses said to fold hand 2, espcially slavic's. You should defnitely cold-call here; not even close.

GoT

[kenewbie]

Hand 1, call.

Hand 2, call. So many people limping in before the raise and you got a good draw hand, this is a good time to play QJs. I dont know why people are suggesting a fold here. I'll go out on a limb and say I'd be more inclined to toss out hand 1 than this one, you got a better posision and better odds on your draws. A pair isnt likely to win you either of the hands.

Hand 3 is tricky. I'd either raise or fold depending on the thighness of BB and those who limped.

k

[k000k]

H1: call.. Ace, suited, str8 and/or flush potential. Plenty o players in to make this worthwhile.

H2: A lot of debate on this hand, but I'd call this all day.. The 4 limpers will most likely call, you have great str8/flush potential here.. Drawing hands dont come much better than this!

H3: I say raise.. If the 2 early limpers have to call 2 to stay in, they might fold. It's better if they fold, but it's not terrible even if they stay in.

[afs]

[ QUOTE ]
Seasoned player slavic gave different actions to the ones that you gave, but I think your correct in your assessment of AQo from the SB facing a raise. Those who say 3-bet to get it heads-up are on crack, you won't get this heads-up. And even if you do, 2/3 of the time you're not flopping a pair and where do you go from there given you're out of position against a possible/likely better hand? (Obviously whether your opponent capped will affect this decision.)

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise won't make it heads-up, but it seems near certain you'll knock out at least the BB, and quite possibly one of the early limpers. I think you can reasonably expect to be up against ~2.5 hands on the flop. If you know the raiser has very tight raising standards, then of course it's an easy fold. But otherwise -- AQo is pretty strong three or four handed, even in first position. Very likely the best hand at the table. I don't know ... I might be thinking poorly here. But if you can't play AQo in this spot, when _can_ you play it at this table? Only in LP on the one cycle in five thousand when there's just a single caller before you, or when you get in free from the BB?

I'm honestly curious: the baiting tone is very much unintentional, and I apologize in advance.

Cheers,
Anders

[StellarWind]

As I said, it matters who your opponent is. In this case all we know is that MP is playing Party 0.5/1.

A typical 0.5/1 player raises preflop with the Nifty 50: AA(6), KK(6), QQ(6), AK(16), and AQ(16). That's about 4% of all starting hands. Every one of those hands is a disaster for AQo out-of-position.

Of course it's no bargain if he also raises with JJ or TT. In order to counterbalance the weight of all these dominating hands you need someone who is so aggressive that he is almost sure to raise with AJ, KQ, and AT or worse. By all means 3-bet if you've got that read. Just remember that even overaggressive players get dealt good hands sometimes.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
A typical 0.5/1 player raises preflop with the Nifty 50: AA(6), KK(6), QQ(6), AK(16), and AQ(16). That's about 4% of all starting hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

By my numbers that's about 1.9% of all starting hands... 52*51 = 2652 starting hands, 50/2652 = appx 1.9%.

I was just calculating these %'s for some backing evidence on an unrelated post, which I will be posting shortly...

[DoctorDrew]

[quoteBy my numbers that's about 1.9% of all starting hands... 52*51 = 2652 starting hands, 50/2652 = appx 1.9%.



[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there are only 1326 unique starting hands making the percentage closer to 4% (3.770739%). Am I wrong on this?

[Raiser]

You are correct. There are (52*51)/2=1326 unique starting hands. You have to divide by 2 since, e.g., A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is the same as K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[DoctorDrew]

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
I was disturbed when the first 3 responses said to fold hand 2, espcially slavic's. You should defnitely cold-call here; not even close.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

I still maintain that when you expect more raising you can fold it. Maybe its just me but I am noticing a lot more limp reraising recently and 4 limpers doesn't just say you are going to have a nice multiway pot, it means there are 4 more people and 2 blinds that could raise. I would always play if I was confident of it only being 2 bets, but IMO its player dependant, and if I have notes on a few of the limpers as fans of this play I would muck it. Maybe I should be happy to play for 3 bets in a big pot though.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
You are correct. There are (52*51)/2=1326 unique starting hands. You have to divide by 2 since, e.g., A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is the same as K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, but A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif are still 2 distinct starting hands! There's 12 ways to make AKo, not 2. If we say that any AKo is the same as any other AKo, then there's only 169 starting hands, yes?

[DoctorDrew]

Actually I think the equation would be for any unique set of y cards from a deck of x number: x!/y!*[x-y]!

So, 52!/2!*[52-2]!=1326

[Raiser]

Ummm, A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif=K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

It makes no difference whether you get the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif first or the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif first. They are the same hand.

[afs]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, it matters who your opponent is. In this case all we know is that MP is playing Party 0.5/1.

A typical 0.5/1 player raises preflop with the Nifty 50: AA(6), KK(6), QQ(6), AK(16), and AQ(16). That's about 4% of all starting hands. Every one of those hands is a disaster for AQo out-of-position.

Of course it's no bargain if he also raises with JJ or TT. In order to counterbalance the weight of all these dominating hands you need someone who is so aggressive that he is almost sure to raise with AJ, KQ, and AT or worse. By all means 3-bet if you've got that read. Just remember that even overaggressive players get dealt good hands sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, if these are the typical party .5/1 raising hands it is an easy fold. I don't have this impression at all -- would expect that maybe 30% of the time you'd see these hands, around 50-60% of the time you'd see legitimate but inferior hands, and around 10-20% of the time junk. This could be all wrong. Need to look through my (currently way too small) pokertracker db and make sure. If the raiser has a five-percenter fifty percent of the time, I've been making some piss-poor plays.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif=K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

It makes no difference whether you get the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif first or the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif first. They are the same hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I understand now..... I thought you were saying that A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif= A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif since I seem to have forgotten how to read.... Yes I feel like a dumbass, you are 100% correct..

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I know I'll get my chops busted for this, but at Party $.5/1, I'd call all three.