Turn fold with overpair

[Jezebel]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) calls, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls $4 (All-In), CO calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.20 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO caps</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (14.10 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, Hero folds.

River: (17.10 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in) </font>

Final Pot: 17.10 BB

[Alobar]

hmmm, very interesting hand.

If you're confident that he has the ten, why even bet the turn? You didn't spike you're set, wouldn't a check/fold have been better? There is a guy all in so it might not be as likely you're being bluffed. I prolly would have gone into check/call mode, but then thats what prolly seperates me from someone who can play 5/10. But if you're going to make the big lay down I think you could have saved yourself a BB on the turn and just folded

[FletchJr.]

when he raised on the flop, even tho this may sound weak, waht's the point of 3 betting. if' he's got a middle pair he amy lay it down on the turn if you keep firing so hard, and if he's got a T he's just going to hammer you harder. so why don't you play your hand a little more deceptively by just check/calling, this way he will bet hands that you can beat.I think in this situation he will be willing to bluff with more hands then he will call with. so hope he's bluffing and go into check and call mode. just my 2 cents

[Dylan Wade]

In some games I like the turn bet, but against a passive group it's suicidal. Err... at least it seems like a waste---- your opponent obviously has you beat after capping the flop. In this pot, you gotta see the turn. But I don't think you can continue past the turn knowing that you're behind.

However, if there's at least some chance you're ahead still then betting the turn seems prudent. But I don't think you can ever say you're ahead after being raised on the turn.

[T5off]

I dont like the turn bet and I dont like the turn fold! CO may hold an overpair as well. In any case, either you're beat, or a free card wont help your opponent much. So, I'd check-call to the river. You always have 2 outs plus the chance your hand is actually best.

In such a big pot that should be sufficent.

[Trix]

Your opponent posted, so you dont know much about each other. I´ll assume he is decent. In that case he could call the preflop raise with a pair or some suited hand with a Ten in it.

Given that you raised and capped preflop he can assume that you dont have a Ten. His actions really look like he is protecting his hand as he makes BB face 2 cold several times, so I would probably call down, especially knowing that he might know that you cant hold a Ten.

Many wouldn´t play trips that fast.

You might actually have been better off check-calling the turn and river as I dont think you can fold to the turn raise.

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're confident that he has the ten, why even bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I was not confident that he had a ten until he raised the turn. On the turn we have a player all in, and the BB preflop 3 better to act behind the CO. My thinking is that the CO needs guts of steel or brains of mush to raise on a pure bluff here once again. I felt that I could reasonably put my opponent on a ten and fold to his turn raise.

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
when he raised on the flop, even tho this may sound weak, waht's the point of 3 betting

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two other opponents in the hand. My three bet allows me to narrow the range of hands my opponents are playing, maybe get one to drop an ace, and I think my KK is ahead often enough for it to be for value. The combo of these three makes the 3 bet automatic in my opinion.

If it were headsup then I think your suggested line of play has more merit. I rarely play decepetively in big multiway pots.

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
In some games I like the turn bet, but against a passive group it's suicidal. Err... at least it seems like a waste---- your opponent obviously has you beat after capping the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would it be suicidal to bet the turn against a passive group? If a passive player raises me on the turn, shouldn't that information be golden? I think the turn bet has less value against a maniac.

[ QUOTE ]
However, if there's at least some chance you're ahead still then betting the turn seems prudent. But I don't think you can ever say you're ahead after being raised on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my line of thinking. I could not confidently lay down my kings just because of his flop cap. When he fires the second barrel into an all in better and the BB who has also showed aggression preflop from a blind (which usually indicates a premium hand) then I feel that I'm chasing and wasting 2 BB to find out the obvious.

[Jezebel]

Trix,
This line of play briefly entered my mind as a viable option. I also thought that the CO might be testing me since he "knew" I did not have a ten, but I could not be sure that he did not. That was another big reason I bet the turn. Few players will fire the second barrel in that spot without at least some strong draw. The board is drawless on the turn, so I had to give him credit for a ten.

I think that the fact that I did not have a read on this opponent makes your suggested line of play more of an option. Part of the reason I didn't call down was that I knew I was going to get to see his hand at showdown so I didn't feel the need to pay for "looking him up".

[Jezebel]

CO took the pot with Queen high. He was holding the infamous Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Did I even have a chance against such cosmic powers /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[tripdad]

excellent point, and one that i'm sure many readers didn't consider. good post reply trix!

(next time i'm against a preflop capper and i hold my favorite hand, 22{what's so funny?}, i'll jam like hell if the flop is paired small to middle and expect to take AA down!) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

cheers!

[FletchJr.]

Don't you think there's more value in letting your opponents draw pratically dead and not reraise. yes i know the pot is huge, but the flop is TT4 all they really got are runner runner draws or 2 outers. If u bet into the pot on the flop like u did and the next player raises I think I'd rather have a guy with a hand like AJ call 2 cold on the flop.

I think i'd play more aggressively if i had a hand like 99 or JJ because overcards are death.