turn limp 3 bet. Good idea bad idea?

[BookOfIcculus]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: hero TEhero%%%%%A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11 TEhero#####) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 TEhero*****) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, hero calls, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (20 TEhero*****) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 24 TEhero*****
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 24 TEhero*****, between Button, SB, UTG and hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by hero (24 TEhero*****).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB shows Qh As (one pair, queens).
UTG shows Qs 7d (two pair, queens and sevens).
hero shows Ad Td (flush, ace high).
Button shows 2s 2h (three of a kind, twos).
Outcome: hero wins 24 TEhero*****. </font>

Not sure why but TEhero**** mean BB and TEheo#### means SB. Left it there, maybe bisonbison was browsing the forum.

[Azhrarn]

You know, I think the converter does that when the hero is MP. Weird.

Pre-flop: I'll usually raise this after a limper, but I'll admit to occasional limping.

Turn: Given your call on the turn, I like the 3-bet, but in general I think raising the turn is better. There's no reason to suspect the CO or button are going to raise it for you. You're risking missing out on a lot of action here, and you might not be able to make up for it on the river, especially if another diamond fell there. But it worked out well for you.

[Demian]

I'd normally raise it PF as well. But i don't think the limp,3-bet line was too bad on the turn here. I think in general it depends on his opponents and also how he is perceived by them as well. That flop call and turn raise when the diamond hits could just as likley kill the action. What i would do here really depends on my reads on these opponents. Also, if i at all suspect that one of the two remaining players behind will raise, i'd rather play it the way Book did because it's easier to trap the first two into calling an additional two bets that way.

Then again, i think it would have been even more profitable if he had raised PF, and then bet or raised the flop as well.

[BookOfIcculus]

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop: I'll usually raise this after a limper, but I'll admit to occasional limping.


[/ QUOTE ] Well I limp with ATs becuase I find that alot of times I isolate my self against a hand that dominates me. Plus I like to keep poor players in so I can get their money on later streets when I hit a big hand. Also if I hit nothing I can easly fold with no regrets. If I raise I tend to stay in longer and make bad decisions.

As far as the turn limp. I thought any hand that would call 2-bets would likely raise it themselves, and not 3 bet it with the flush out. If everone had crap behind me they might fold to my raise, but call a single bet. It's a make more money situation anyway i look at it.

[naphand]

I agree with you on this one Book.

Playing these tables ($1/$2), a large portion of the players will just stay in hands with any kind of draw or crappy pair, the boards they will fold to are 3-flushers and paired top cards like AA, KK or QQ. A raise here on the turn will certainly knock out players who will call to the River, and you are way ahead.

I have been taking note of players' responses in these kinds of hands, and I am raising good suited like this (which have plenty of ways to win) and find I am getting maybe 2 callers who both fold on the River, and I take dowm a disappointing pot. At this limit raising here is losing you money. I think you either got lucky with Buttons re-raise or your read was good, and the 3-bet was perfect as they are now pretty much tied to calling you.

In many hands if you just call a 3-suited flop, or Turn, they just don't put you on the flush and you get to extract more bets on the River (or here, as you did). Their default is to call, hoping no-one has the flush. This is esp. true if you normally play very ABC, as the table does begin to fear your raises (they go through stages, calling your raises, then folding after you show down some big hands, then calling you again when they get pissed with you raising all the time).

I was accussed of "raising with nothing" on Stars a day or so ago, so I typed "for someone who believes I raise with nothing, you sure are folding a lot". She kept folding... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The limp PF I think is OK; ATs is one of those hands I am just never sure what to do with. My default is to raise, but I am increasingly thinking I could perhaps limp more with it, for the reasons you give. It is a good multi-way hand, and I think you make the most money by keeping people in when you are drawing to the nuts/have the nuts unless you have a reason to suspect someone also has hit a big hand (and even then you may make more by waiting to the River to show any strength). I think you gave fire away with just TP and no draw, and judge the response of the others as to their Aces/kickers.

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I limp with ATs becuase I find that alot of times I isolate my self against a hand that dominates me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this surprising, because this definitely has not been my experience. I have not played Party 1/2, but at 5/10, many players' willingness to play any ace from any position combined with the willingness of many of even the passive sorts to raise their big aces pre-flop means I hardly ever am dominated by an early limping hand when I have AT. Man, that was an awkward sentence.

Or did you mean your raises tended to be called by better aces but not worse ones?

[ QUOTE ]
Plus I like to keep poor players in so I can get their money on later streets when I hit a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. I'm pretty tight pre-flop, and I still usually get good action on my raises. Certainly, there are many who think nothing of coldcalling two bets with Ax. Just ask my big pocket pairs. /images/graemlins/frown.gif I suppose there are players who'll come in with Ax for one bet but not two, but I have to think raising it's going to be more profitable overall.

Are your arguments for limping based on your position in the original example? Would it change if you were the button (but still with an UTG limper)?

[ QUOTE ]
Also if I hit nothing I can easly fold with no regrets. If I raise I tend to stay in longer and make bad decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now this I understand, because I've had some of the same problems. I think a pre-flop raise often does make post-flop play more difficult.

As for the turn limp/3-bet, I agree it probably worked out better for you than a straight raise. I disagree that any hand that would call two cold would likely raise it themselves, because of the passive nature of many opponents (I assume) at 1/2. So I think you make more money raising v. not raising, but perhaps the limp 3-bet attempt would succeed often enough to make up the difference overall.

Ah well, I'm not sure how much sense I'm making, but the sun's coming up. Time for bed.