Struggling. Advice? And a hand to look at.

[Soggy Salmon]

Alright, I have to face the fact that I just might be a really lousy poker player. I think play okay, but the results speak for themselves. After near 20,000 hands at Party .5/1 I am down 104 BB at the moment.

I have read my (autographed /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) copy of WLLHE about 15 times. I have read TOP and HPFAP at least 4 times each. I try to actually study these texts and not just read them. I read this forum and the small stakes one every day and try to put into play the advice from the solid posters. When I read a hand posted, I think of what I would do, then read the replies. Most of the time, what I would do is the same as the replies.

So why am I losing? Either I am very unlucky or I must be deluding myself that I am playing correctly when I am not. Or it is not possible to beat the rake.

Where do I go from here?

Anyway, I know I need to start posting more hands. Here is one that I think I played right but maybe didn't.

BB will play any two suited any position. Not much raising. CO plays literally every hand. (And is winning more than I of course.)

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Jd Ks (straight, ace high).
BB shows Qs Js (flush, ace high).
Outcome: BB wins 10.75 BB. </font>

[thrillhouse]

Well for me, KJo is a tough hand to play. Because there are only 8 people in this hand, and you are in later MP, I suppose a raise is OK, but just know you are using it mostly to steal the blinds. KJo is not a strong hand.

I don't think you can bet this flop. Thats a really tough flop for your hand. I suppose a semibluff is OK, but you have to check it from then on, and fold to a bet. Once the Ace of spades comes on the turn you seriously need to fold right away, even though you have the gutshot.
-Thrillho

[DoctorDrew]

Amen

[Soggy Salmon]

Yeah, I raised pre-flop hoping to get it down to me and the CO, knowing he would play anything.

On the flop, I bet out because I am in the habit (maybe bad habit) of betting out if I raise pre-flop if I have overcards. Not every time, just most. I have been caught in too many awkward situations if I check on the flop after rasing pre-flop. Maybe this is one of my leaks?

On the turn, I held on after the raise because I held four to the flush with the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif .

Any of this thinking incorrect?

[afs]

[ QUOTE ]
Once the Ace of spades comes on the turn you seriously need to fold right away, even though you have the gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The A/images/graemlins/spade.gif also gives him the nut flush draw. This is the probably best street.

[Zetack]

I'd be concerned too, if I was down after that long. However, bad runs of cards can stretch over 20,000 hands. And down 104 is not a huge amount to be down--particularly over that stretch of time. So at least you're not lousy, or you'd be way down.

Hang in there for another 20k and if you're still down, find another hobby. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm torn about playing this hand. K-J is marginal enough I'm not wild to be playing it for a raise. But if you are going to play it, first in, 2 off the button, you have to raise with it. So that's fine.

If this was limping hand, I'd fold the flop, but with two opponents, two overcards, as the aggressor, with the BB checking to you, and with the backdoor flush--betting is good.

Turn...tricky tricky tricky. If all you had now was the gutshot straight and not the nut flush draw I'd check fold. But of course you do and nobody's shown any agression. So yeah, you bet. Can't like the C/R much.

Well, damn. Bad river card for you...you can't be happy because of the turn C/R, but your hand is too good now to let go.

It's an unfortunate hand, where you just kept hitting the cards to keep you involved, but there you go.

You didn't have to play this PF...but doing so was fine.

You'll just hit hands like this from time to time. I've had much more expensive ones.

--Zetack

[thrillhouse]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I bet out because I am in the habit (maybe bad habit) of betting out if I raise pre-flop if I have overcards. Not every time, just most. I have been caught in too many awkward situations if I check on the flop after rasing pre-flop. Maybe this is one of my leaks?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean when you say you find yourself in ackward situations when you check. I think you just need to vary your play enough so that they know you are capable of check raising. What I do, is when someone always bets when I check and I do not have anything, I'll fold but write a note on the player reminding myself that they will try this maneuver on me. Now when you get a good hand, check it to him and let him pay you off.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I raised pre-flop hoping to get it down to me and the CO, knowing he would play anything.

On the flop, I bet out because I am in the habit (maybe bad habit) of betting out if I raise pre-flop if I have overcards. Not every time, just most. I have been caught in too many awkward situations if I check on the flop after rasing pre-flop. Maybe this is one of my leaks?

On the turn, I held on after the raise because I held four to the flush with the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif .

Any of this thinking incorrect?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'd say this thinking was correct.

I definitely do not think its a leak to bet the flop on the hands you raised Pf even when you miss if no one has yet bet on the flop.

--Zetack

[DoctorDrew]

AFS, I am going to be watching. I want to see that "D" all season, even if the Tigers slip down the standings. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[afs]

lol.

But how could they slip down? They're _obviously_ on track for 108 wins ... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[spamuell]

Your pre-flop and flop play are pretty standard.

Perhaps this is a weakness of mine, but as both of my opponents called the flop I would just check behind on the turn and hope to hit one of my outs on the river and have them bet into my obvious weakness so I can raise. Also, I can feel OK about calling the river in situations like that if I hit a pair. Maybe this is correct with less outs, I'm not sure if it's correct here.

If one of the flop opponents had folded and it was left heads-up, I would have bet.

[adanthar]

I would fold KJo early in 50/1. The reason is that you will be called by literally anything, and more importantly, lots of it. At 3/6, while you'll occasionally be called by any two suited, raising it will often make a good player's AT and even AJ fold; here, you'll often be called by six people with A3 and 65o who will then call their inside straight draws to the river. Odds are one will draw out since the schooling effect is too powerful at low limits.

Even if you raise, you should *certainly* check/fold this flop. No one is going to fold to your bet, and even if you're not being trapped, you're a dog to almost any combination of four cards.

On the bright side, the way you played this is pretty much how I play that hand at 3/6 (with the occasional fold thrown in on a more aggressive table.)

[sin808]

From that early of a position I wouldn't have raised with that hand. With the check/raise on the turn, I'd have to put him on the flush and folded. Unless he's been known to steal in those situations.

[jacki]

I say muck this.
KJo is turbo muck for me, from almost any position.
This raise might be OK at a tight 1/2 or 2/4 table, but you don't steal the blinds _EVER_ in .50/1

[StellarWind]

Reading is fine but you need to analyze hands. Don't just lurk, post hands and comment on other people's hands. Hard on the ego but you will improve.

It's fine to raise PF with KJo in MP3. They are not great cards but who is to say anyone else has better ones? The field is getting small and that helps the guy with high cards. It's really not a problem that you can't steal the blinds in .5/1 because people will call with 65 or whatever. There's a reason good players don't call probable steal raises with total junk. It's because it's cheaper just to hand over the blinds than to fight without a weapon. If calling with junk is bad for the caller it must be good for the raiser.

Now let's look at the upside of stealing at .5/1. Very few of those punishing light reraises that are so popular in better games.

The problem with this hand is the flop. You cannot play poker by rote. Whatever one's general feeling about overcards and raised flops, the details just aren't working on this hand. Overcards don't work well with paired flops because you are so often drawing dead to trips. Moreover, no one is going to believe this flop hit your hand. Any ace, ten, or six will call you down so there is minimal point to betting.

Also consider your opponent. CO sounds like the type who gives free cards but calls bets. Why bet in front of such a person with no hand? If you don't get a free card then fold. This little pot is not worth it.

[Vehn]

You played the hand fine. Tough luck. Posting this kind of hand doesn't help your game. Unless you really didn't know you didn't play the hand fine.

[Soggy Salmon]

[ QUOTE ]
You cannot play poker by rote.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I do tend to do this. Good point.

[Soggy Salmon]

Well, I thought I played it okay, but like I said, I am just realizing that what I think is okay must not be. So I need to find out where my leaks are. This was a hand that I wasn't sure of. Don't think I am posting a bad beat hand. I have hundreds of those that are much worse than this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't think I am posting a bad beat hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't a bad beat. You lost to a player who played properly and deserved his luck.

[Soggy Salmon]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't a bad beat. You lost to a player who played properly and deserved his luck

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it was. Just replying to Vehn's "tough luck" comment. This is one of the reasons why I don't post much on any forum I am a member of. I sometimes feel I am not speaking the same language as the rest of you. /images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I have to face the fact that I just might be a really lousy poker player. I think play okay, but the results speak for themselves. After near 20,000 hands at Party .5/1 I am down 104 BB at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Party $.50/$1 is you're first poker playground, you are doing fine. It took me 3 months of Ultimate Bet $0.01/.02 to figure out why I lost the first $200 I deposited on Party.

With that said, I don't remember any 5,000+ hand losing streak since re-joining party. I've had -100 BB losses over 2,000 hands, but I always recover in the next few thousand.

Being down the first 20,000 hands you ever play does not make you a "really lousy poker player". I probably played 60,000 hands before I really had confidence in my $.50/1 Party Poker abilities.

[ QUOTE ]
I have read my (autographed ) copy of WLLHE about 15 times. I have read TOP and HPFAP at least 4 times each. I try to actually study these texts and not just read them. I read this forum and the small stakes one every day and try to put into play the advice from the solid posters. When I read a hand posted, I think of what I would do, then read the replies. Most of the time, what I would do is the same as the replies.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have done your homework, you will soon be able to crush these games. I have never read any of my books 15 times /images/graemlins/blush.gif