Anyone else ever make this play?

[chief444]

B&M 5/10 w/ Kill...Kill pot so 10/20 this hand

Overall loose/aggressive game at this point with a couple of rocks and a couple of calling stations mixed in.

Hero is in SB with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG+1 (Kill button) checks option, 3 other limpers to me.
I raise, BB folds, 2 callers and then a limp-reraise from tight/fairly passive player in CO position who more than likely has AA. I've played with him often and he almost always plays AA this way but raises right away with other higher pairs. However I'm not certain he isn't just pumping the pot with a slightly less than premium hand as I am. One caller to me. I decide to call knowing the other two will as well (both fairly weak opponents).

Anyone lay this down here? Even though I think I'm dominated the pot is 15 SB's preflop so I'm fairly certain that this is the right play.

5 to the flop
Flop comes Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I lead out, 2 callers, CO raises, button folds, I call, 2 others call.

4 to the turn
Turn comes a rag. I check. Two calling stations check. CO bets, I raise....

Here is my logic: First I was fairly certain that at least 1 of the two calling stations would call 2 cold. Second I was fairly certain that the CO would call and check through the river so I would see the showdown for the same cost as calling both the turn and the river. CO is a decent player however he becomes timid if you come back over top of him once. With the pot as large as it was I was going to showdown because I was not sure that CO had the overpair. My thought is this play allows me to see the showdown for the same price as I'm sure the river is getting checked through. However if I do catch my flush I'm getting paid off a couple of extra bets.

In hindsight, I probably made a mistake not 3-betting the flop or check/raising the flop for the above reasons. I'm fairly certain I could have gotten the turn to check through. But given the flop play, does anyone else ever make a similar play from first position when you know your opponents well enough?

[asdf1234]

He's kind of dumb for trying to limp reraise AA in the CO in a kill hand.

[chief444]

I agree. I would never do it. But it was what he had and he took down a nice pot when no spade fell.

[sfer]

Why not checkraise the flop and increase your chances of winning with unimproved top pair?

[Nottom]

If you really put him on AA, you are better off pumping the pot on the flop. At that point you are actually a slight favorite over an overpair plus the other players are more likely to call your bets. If the CO isn't gonna lay down an overpair for your turn checkraise I just don't see the point in putting in extra money you know is no good.

[chief444]

I did consider it and that may have been a mistake. But with the raise coming from my right I didn't want to drive opponents out. Although with two complete calling stations it may have been a better play.

[chief444]

Pumping the pot is the reason I led out on the flop. As I noted 3-betting the flop may have been the best option. Actually the more I think about it the more I feel it would have been.

But as far as the turn check-raise...I didn't do it hoping to get an AA hand to fold. I knew that if he had anything from top pair 10 kicker to AA he would not lay it down in this pot. I did it for several other reasons:

1) I decided I was going to showdown even if it cost 1 more BB on the river. Therefore if I check/called both the turn and the river I knew CO would continue betting and it would cost me 2 BB.
2) I knew that a check/raise on the turn would result in CO calling the turn (unless he had QQ which was very unlikely) and checking through the river. I play with this opponent very often and he becomes very timid in this type of situation. Therefore this also costs me 2 BB to get to showdown.
3) By doing #2 above, it allows me to pick up extra bets on the river if a spade falls. With the added value of deception as well I may get as many as 4 BB extra if I'm lucky. But when a spade doesn't fall it still costs me the same amount to go to showdown.

This was my reasoning. It was more to take control of the hand back from CO which I was sure the check/raise would do. This play works much better from later position but there are occasions such as this where I will do it out of position if I feel certain about my read on the opponent(s).

Does anyone not agree with this logic or feel that this is just a poor play, at least from first position?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
2) I knew that a check/raise on the turn would result in CO calling the turn (unless he had QQ which was very unlikely) and checking through the river. I play with this opponent very often and he becomes very timid in this type of situation. Therefore this also costs me 2 BB to get to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you show flop aggression will he still wimp out on the river?

[Bob T.]

If your opponent has AA, and it isn't a certainty, you are a slight favorite on the flop, I think you made a big mistake by not 3 betting here, especially with the presence of the other players.

The play on the turn, is OK, given your expectations but I would probably not have done it.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
If you show flop aggression will he still wimp out on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I don't believe so. I think that even if I led out again on the turn but checked the river he would have suspected the busted flush draw and would have bet. For some reason this particular guy seems to get thrown off when check/raised. I think it is because he usually uses the check/raise when he has an extremely strong hand so he automatically puts someone on trips or better when they play a hand that way. That said, I believe it was a mistake not 3-betting the flop. I don't think it would have lost either of the two remaining calling stations and would have been a good value bet. But my biggest question was on the turn play, given that I had played the flop as I had.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
If your opponent has AA, and it isn't a certainty, you are a slight favorite on the flop, I think you made a big mistake by not 3 betting here, especially with the presence of the other players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, especially with them calling down with almost anything. They probably would have called for one bet or two and I probably could have seen a free river card if desired. Definitely a mistake on my part.

[ QUOTE ]
The play on the turn, is OK, given your expectations but I would probably not have done it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely do make this play. This was just one of those times I felt very confident with my expectations.

Thanks for your input Bob.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
But my biggest question was on the turn play, given that I had played the flop as I had.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know he will check behind on the river then it seems fine to me. Its basically the same play as raising behind on the turn with the intention of seeing a free showdown unless you improve except that you are out of position.