Does This Prove Discrimination?

[MMMMMM]

"...The latest Census data (P60-221, for you skeptics) shows that in 2002 the average white household had an income of just under $47,000, while the average Asian American household had an income of just over $52,600. Does that prove discrimination against whites?"

excerpted from a recent column by Thomas Sowell

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20040415.shtml


I may be away for a few days or longer; if so, best wishes to everyone on the forums (yes, even to Cyrus (sigh);-)). Upon returning I will look again at John's post, Favorite Poem Project, and read the ones I missed and hopefully some newly posted poems as well. Anyone (besides John and maybe Zeno) up for analyzing/critiquing some of the posted poetry, both conceptually and artistically?

Laterz, M

[Boris]

no it doesn't prove discrimination becuase most of the Asian/Americans that came this country did so because they were the top performing students in their country. This is certainly true for China, less so for Japan. Koreans and Indians also follow the same patterns to varying degrees. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that third generation Chinese do about the same as whites who come from similiar socio-economic background. You also have to figure that immigrants in general are more likely to take risks and probably more intelligent and motivated than the average american (of any color).

Many hitech businesses try to outsource high value programming/engineering jobs overseas. The record for this is spotty at best. One very successfull hi-tech company, Microsoft, does not do any outsourcing. They figure all the worthwhile talent moves to the US anyways.

[ACPlayer]

One fact proves no causal relationship.

Only someone with little brains would even pose such a hypothesis in the form of a inflammatory question based on one solitary statistical fact.

[AndysDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll bet you dollars to donuts...

[/ QUOTE ]

This just doesn't have the same impact it used to. So you're giving even odds - big deal! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Maybe we should switch to "Dollars to gumballs" or "Black chips to donuts"

[MMMMMM]

You're right, it doesn't prove discrimination. And yes, I agree it's an inflammatory question. Maybe it's time to burn down the myths about discrimination in the USA today. To begin with, how about the common fallacy of expecting diverse groups to produce identical results?

[elwoodblues]

I don't expect diverse groups to achieve the same results (especially when the nature of their diversity is such that it has/should have a meaningful impact on those results). For example, I would expect that household income would affect SAT scores. I would expect that number of parents in the household would affect SAT scores. I would expect that community affluence would affect SAT scores (more affluence = better schools = better scores). I would not expect that hair color would affect SAT scores. If I found that there was a statistically significant difference between blondes and red heads on the SAT I might want to investigate why that was. Similarly, here I want to investigate why there is a difference between whites and asians.


What I expect is that if there are distinct groups that are "underpeforming" we try to figure out why and then, if possible, work to remedy that underperformance. I don't know how you couldn't ask yourself why they are underperforming.

[MMMMMM]

Agreed. One thing that could be added is that one could reasonably expect culture to affect many things--even including SAT scores. For instance, it is built into the culture of Asians to study and work hard, and their performances show the results.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
To begin with, how about the common fallacy of expecting diverse groups to produce identical results?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not a loaded question but, when you start saying certain groups should not be held to the same standard to produce the same results as other groups isn't that descrimination?
I.e. if you say we shouldn't expect blacks to test higher because they may live in worse conditions that whites? I can see why people think that, and I am not really disagreeing with you, but do you see my point? This is one of the reasons I don't like affirmative action. It is racist in two regards, IMO. First it discriminates against majorities(ie white males) and secondly it doesn't hold minorities to the same standards, so in essence affirmative action rewards more on race than talent or merit.
Anyone care to refute that?

[BruceZ]

No, because this could be a case of Simpson's paradox (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=28197& Forum=All_Forums&Words=simpson%27s%20paradox&Match =Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allpost s&Main=28197&Search=true#Post28197) at work. It is actually possible mathematically that whites always get paid more than Asians for doing the same job, and yet the Asians could still have a higher average salary. This can occur if Asians tend to hold higher paying jobs, such as those in engineering.

[MMMMMM]

I'm not trying to say that certain groups should not be held to the same standards, but rather, that even if economic factors were equal, overall results would still vary between diverse groups because of other differences such as culture.

[MMMMMM]

Very interesting, Bruce, thanks.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
overall results would still vary between diverse groups because of other differences such as culture

[/ QUOTE ]
That seems kind of racist in a way. I am not calling you a racist BTW. But the notion that asians are good at math, whites are good business, blacks are good at sports, you see what I mean?

I dunno, I think I agree with you, but I am playing the devils advocate right now.

[MMMMMM]

Culture is not race. Some cultures tend to focus more on certain activities than others. I'm not arguing for varying inherent capabilities per group but rather for the existence of cultural preferences and customs in a very general sense, which may impact the overall results of groups.

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, it is built into the culture of Asians to study and work hard, and their performances show the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I can agree with you here. Studying and working hard are virtues valued by (probably) every culture. I cannot believe its any more "built in" to the Asian culture as it is any other. I have many Asian clients and friends. Many of their children are just as lazy and unmotivated as the white children I know.

Furthermore, once you get to the college level you are meeting up with an elite class anyway. This is more the case when the student comes from over seas. Those students are going to be execptional as a rule as it is a great privilege to attend U.S. universities.

Finally, the income data must be skewed by selective immigration. Many Asian immigrants have to prove economic viability and invest in the U.S. Again, you are sampling from an elite (or relatively so) group.

[MMMMMM]

"Studying and working hard are virtues valued by (probably) every culture. I cannot believe its any more "built in" to the Asian culture as it is any other."


Ok, make that "harder", not "hard";-)

You do raise some other potentially valid points.

[Oski]

I'm not trying to argue for its sake. Nevertheless, even with the word "harder" inserted into your statement, my original response stands.

[elwoodblues]

I agree culture and race are different. Bringing that back to the racism/discrimination issue leads me to ask, for example, why is the median income for african american families lower than caucasian families; why is the incarceration rate greater, etc.

My belief is that if you keep doing that (asking the "why" questions) with some groups, the ultimate Why might be answered by systemic racism/discrimination attitudes several generations ago that adversely affected the culture of those groups. Because of that culture shift and the affects that it has had, I (as a white male) am benefiting from discrimination on a daily basis.

[ThaSaltCracka]

again I am playing devils advocate here.

[ QUOTE ]
Some cultures tend to focus more on certain activities than others.

[/ QUOTE ] explain what you mean by cultures in this context. Are you referring to people living in the midwest? People, who are asian, who live on the west coast. I agree that culture is not race, but when you start saying there are differences in median income between races and then say, "well there is some sort of cultural difference there, and thats why race group x makes more than race group y", can you see how that might be inferred that there are cultural differences between races? And also see how that could be deemed racist?

[ QUOTE ]
the existence of cultural preferences and customs in a very general sense, which may impact the overall results of groups.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is very vague, and maybe I don't quite get what you mean here.
If we take the U.S. as an example, are you saying that there are cultural differences in the U.S. compared to the rest of the world, and thus because of those differences certain races will perform differently. So lets say, one of the cultural differences in the U.S. compared to Asia, is we study less and rely more on retention from an initial lecture. So because of this, those races that test higher must then have better retention skills, i.e. smarter.
Can you see where I am going with this?
Another example, say Americans put more emphasism on sports than our european counterparts, do we then say that Blacks are inherintly better at sports because they make up a larger part of professional sports than whites?

Thoughts or am I way off here?

[M2d]

in some cases, you could say donuts to dollars and be laying

[MMMMMM]

All I'm saying is that diverse groups are very complex and have many differences from other groups. Expecting all results to be identical or similar in the absence of discrimination or economic inequality is fallacious thinking, because the myriad peculiarities of each group lead to varying results. The same is true but even more so for individuals. One of the more significant distinctions between human groups is cultural habits and preferences.

I don't really care to answer myriad questions just to respond to devil's advocacy--it is too laborious and such exchanges could go on forever. Hopefully the above summarizes and explains my view adequately. If there is some key question you feel is really important to the matter go ahead and ask it and I will respond to the best of my ability.

[MMMMMM]

Well the ultimate why might be answered in part by that hypothesis, but I doubt it would be answered in full.

I read an article some months ago which gave many examples of different results being produced by diverse groups, not only in humans, but in the animal kingdom also. The point was, that when groups vary, group results almost always vary too. Wish I could recall the article better so as to post it.

[jdl22]

While I don't necesarily want to be that guy, it really does depend on your definition of "discriminate." One definition is "to distinguish by discerning or exposing differences." According to this definition you and the census bureau have discriminated by setting up the two categories to begin with. This isn't a bad thing certainly and happens all the time. For example, when you use a public restroom there frequently is discrimination at work and you go to either the mens room or the ladies.

That doesn't really work with the idea of discrimating against X. That definition is probably this one: "to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit <discriminate in favor of your friends> <discriminate against a certain nationality>." (all definitions from Merriam-Webster online)

In my opinion one of the myths is that this is always wrong. Often I believe it is wrong, but not always (a good example to me is Native American sovereignty - they are treated differently in the legal sense not based on merits but on other characteristics that in fact they were born with).

Incidentally, I don't believe affirmative action is always discrimination if done correctly. Correctly is subjective, but let me offer an example. Consider two high school graduates applying to college. One is of a rich family. This kid has spent his entire life in private schools and has taken several courses in test preparation and other study skills. He has a GPA of 3.9/4.0 and an SAT score of let's say 1450. In other words he's a damn good applicant at many good schools. Now consider a kid from the projects of Detroit. He was raised only by his mother who struggled to make ends meet. Always going to a public school he spent much of his out of school time working. He has a GPA of 3.80/4.0 and an SAT score of 1400. Note that I haven't given any races here, but which candidate would you take if you could only take 1? I would almost certainly choose the second. His potential seems much higher and he is only slightly worse stats wise at present so I think he "deserves" to be chosen more than the other. Hence this decision of taking the candidate with worse stats is based on merit.

Applying this to your example I would say it certainly shows nothing in terms of discrimination. Sure, Asians tend to make more, but there are a lot of reasons that could explain this. I would reccomend you search for Econometric papers on the subject of discrimination. Maybe there is something there.

On another note, I think your statement about culture being important is a factor in many cases but perhaps not in this example. Let me offer you a few somewhat silly examples where culture obviously plays a huge role:

The median hula dancing ability is much higher among Native Hawaiians living in the United States than white people living in the United States.

The median spanish speaking ability is much higher in hispanic americans than white americans.

Or maybe a little more obscure:
Median math skills among children of mathematics professors tends to be higher than among children of english professors.

Back to poker:
Median win rate among posters on this forum is greater than among people who don't post here.

Is Party discriminating against non posters of this forum?