Robert Varkonyi

[ansky451]

I never saw the WSOP in 2002, I've only been playing for a little over a year now, so can someone tell me, how on earth Robert Varkonyi won the WSOP. Did he get incredibly lucky? When i saw him in the 2003 WSOP he was awful.

[fluff]

He won by being the last person on the table with chips.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
He won by being the last person on the table with chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh sure, that old cheap trick. Anyone can win if they're the last one left.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
I never saw the WSOP in 2002, I've only been playing for a little over a year now, so can someone tell me, how on earth Robert Varkonyi won the WSOP. Did he get incredibly lucky? When i saw him in the 2003 WSOP he was awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awful? He got booted with KK against AA, how in the hell is that awful (disclaimer, in no way am I saying Robert Varkonyi is anything better than an average player, as the cards did run him over in 2002).

But, awful? Give me a break, it wasn't like he called an all-in with his KK, he was the agressor.

[ansky451]

Perhaps he wasn't a terrible poker player, but certainly not someone who deserved to be crowned best in the world.

[jdl22]

You are crowned world champion by winning the World Series of Poker. He did so in by all accounts a fair and ethical manner. How then does he not deserve it?

Poker is a game of chance. That's the main reason we make money. Often in tournaments the best players don't win and the winning players aren't the best but whoever wins certainly deserves it barring any cheating.

[Toro]

He kept getting incredibly lucky with the same hand. And he seemed to realize that this hand was lucky for him and kept pushing with it every time he got it, similar to playing a rush. But of course a rush is a bunch of hands within a short period, these Q10 hands were spread out throughtout the tournament.

He even has a calling card(I got one from him in Vegas when we were at the same table at the Mirage) calling himself Mr. Q10 or something to that effect.

[Slacker13]

Doyle Brunson said in an interview that he was weak player.

I have seen posts before on this same subject and I am sure that even though he is probably a sub par player against the pros I am sure he most likely has more skill than a majority of the poster who says he sucks.

Personally, I find him extremely annoying. There is something about him that irritates the hell out of me.

[wm r the rake]

wasn't he the player that got up and rent to the restroom during the heads up???

[Toro]

No, that was someone else.

[Kevmath]

That was Kevin McBride. It took place in 99 I believe, against Scotty Nguyen.

Kevin...

[Army Eye]

[ QUOTE ]
Awful? He got booted with KK against AA, how in the hell is that awful (disclaimer, in no way am I saying Robert Varkonyi is anything better than an average player, as the cards did run him over in 2002).

But, awful? Give me a break, it wasn't like he called an all-in with his KK, he was the agressor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said he was awful because of losing to AA? In general he played poorly on that broadcast.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Awful? He got booted with KK against AA, how in the hell is that awful (disclaimer, in no way am I saying Robert Varkonyi is anything better than an average player, as the cards did run him over in 2002).

But, awful? Give me a break, it wasn't like he called an all-in with his KK, he was the agressor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said he was awful because of losing to AA? In general he played poorly on that broadcast.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? They only showed him in about five hands. I think he won three of them (one with a nice bluff of Scotty). you make it seem like there was a sufficient number of hands to make a judgement on him as a player, I wish I could come to a conclussion that quickly on my opponents.

[Daliman]

He got VERY lucky on the final table in several instances, and is generally regarded as the worst player ever to win the title, or at least 2nd worst to Hal Fowler. Julian gardner couldn't beat him HU because every time he got a hand that he could work with, he knew Varkonyi wasnt good enough to fold to a raise or bet in most instances. Also notable in 2002 was was is generally regarded as the WORST overall play ever by a prohibitive chip leader going into final table by John Shipley. He started the day with 2,033,000 in chips, and 2nd place was at 927,000, yet Shipley still managed to finish 7th, the worst finish ever by ANY chip leader at the final table, ( I'm pretty sure...)

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Julian gardner couldn't beat him HU because every time he got a hand that he could work with, he knew Varkonyi wasnt good enough to fold to a raise or bet in most instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should rephrase this. Because, as it is now, it sounds incredibly stupid.

[The WET BEAVER]

John Feeney suggested that tournaments may not be real poker. Maybe this is a good example when subpar players beat a number of top pros.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Julian gardner couldn't beat him HU because every time he got a hand that he could work with, he knew Varkonyi wasnt good enough to fold to a raise or bet in most instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should rephrase this. Because, as it is now, it sounds incredibly stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it does. But, I totally agree with the point Dali is trying to make. I'm not saying that Varkoni is a good player/bad player or anything else. Since he hasn't really done anything notable since his WSOP win, I don't really think he's that great of a player. Of course, I had the same opinion of MM but when you finish second at another major tournament within a year of your WSOP, that kind of gives you credibility doesn't it?

Anyway, my point is how can you base your judgement of Varkoni as a player on the handful of hands that were broadcast from the most recent Series? In my opinion, you can't. That's all I'm saying.

Did he get lucky in 2002 or more importantly, did the cards run him over? Most definitely.

[AnyAce]

In this article he talks about 6 key hands at the 2002 WSOP where he was all in (in most he was a dog or a coin flip). He won all but one (and split the one he didnt win). By my quick & dirty calculations the ex ante odds of winning all six of these hands was about 100 to 1 against.

http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13878

As someone said here on 2+2 (I think): To win a tourney you have to get lucky 3 times.

I think Varkonyi did that and then some...

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Julian gardner couldn't beat him HU because every time he got a hand that he could work with, he knew Varkonyi wasnt good enough to fold to a raise or bet in most instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should rephrase this. Because, as it is now, it sounds incredibly stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps you should think about what I'm saying. Take, for example, the final hand. Varkonyi couldn't fold top pair mid kicker to a 2.5-1 check raise on the flop. If you watch, similar things happen earlier where Gardner just KNOWS Varkonyi can't make CLOSE to a quality fold, as he frequently put his $$$ in knowing he had the worst of it, but had minor, and usually less than proper, odds to go with the hand. The only way Gardner could win a big had otherwise was by showing RV the better hand, a hallmark of how you beat a bad player.
Actually, I'm surprised you would even make such a shortsighted statement. Either you think I have no clue, or just didn't think it through, is I know you know what yer talking about.

[HajiShirazu]

Yeah, calling an all in when you had a read that you were about a 2:1 favorite, and being right. The hallmark of a bad player.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, calling an all in when you had a read that you were about a 2:1 favorite, and being right. The hallmark of a bad player.

[/ QUOTE ]

A READ?!? like when he called hellmuth's AK allin b4 final table with Qto. Guess he put hellmuth on Q9. Brilliant.

I'll let you in on a little secret... Poker is about more than the cards you hold. If you for a minute think that any more went through Varkonyi's head than, "well, i DO have top pair", you're a worse player than even HE is,( which given your post, seems awfully likely)

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
That was Kevin McBride. It took place in 99 I believe, against Scotty Nguyen.

[/ QUOTE ]

That happened in 1998. Noel Furlong was the world champion in 1999.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was Kevin McBride. It took place in 99 I believe, against Scotty Nguyen.

[/ QUOTE ]

That happened in 1998. Noel Furlong was the world champion in 1999.

[/ QUOTE ]
Funny thing about this hand also, is that after McBride cameback to the table, Scotty did his standard annoying "If I read you right, it's all over, baby" line, then proceeded to read him wrong, lol. Obviously, Scotty went on to win, but Mcbride played admirably for an amateur.

[Army Eye]

[ QUOTE ]
John Feeney suggested that tournaments may not be real poker. Maybe this is a good example when subpar players beat a number of top pros.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please. Because some guy had a great run of cards and won ONE tourney, they're not real poker?

How are cash games any different? I've seen a total fish clean out a table when the cards are running his way on many occasions..

Feeney's book is great, but I suggest just tearing out his chapter on tourneys.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps you should think about what I'm saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the same old "You just can't beat bad players because they call too much and won't fold when they're beat".

[ QUOTE ]
The only way Gardner could win a big had otherwise was by showing RV the better hand, a hallmark of how you beat a bad player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then that's what he should have done instead of trying to make plays at a player who "couldn't fold".

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
John Feeney suggested that tournaments may not be real poker. Maybe this is a good example when subpar players beat a number of top pros.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please. Because some guy had a great run of cards and won ONE tourney, they're not real poker?

How are cash games any different? I've seen a total fish clean out a table when the cards are running his way on many occasions..

Feeney's book is great, but I suggest just tearing out his chapter on tourneys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually agree and disagree with this statement. Tournament Pokeris dramatically different than a ring-game. That much is true. But, they are both poker, just different breeds.

[astroglide]

a LOT of nl has to do with stack sizes, and that has nothing to do with the cards or the rules of the game. so much of nl tourneys is "what is his stack, what is my stack, and am i getting irrefusable odds"

[lunchmeat]

[ QUOTE ]
A READ?!? like when he called hellmuth's AK allin b4 final table with Qto. Guess he put hellmuth on Q9. Brilliant.


[/ QUOTE ]
The way I heard it, Varkonyi moved in with QTs, and Hellmuth called him with AK. This makes AK only a 6: 4 favorite, so in the annals of suckouts this one hardly registers.

Even if I heard the story wrong and Varkonyi was the caller, the only reason people know about this hand at all is because of Hellmuth's incessant whining about it. If Varkonyi knocked out anybody else on that hand, we never would have heard about it.

[JustPlayingSmart]

[ QUOTE ]
Varkonyi couldn't fold top pair mid kicker to a 2.5-1 check raise on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know the stacks involved here, but I don't think Varkonyi is the only person that would make this call. He is only losing to a better queen, an overpair or a 4, while there are many hands that he beats that might make this all-in check-raise. He probably knew Gardner was a better player and decided that this was his shot to win the tournament. I remember not thinking Varkonyi was a great player when watching WSOP 2002, but I don't think this hand is the best example of that.

[John Feeney]

Hey guys, don't tear it out! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif Actually, a lot of people misread that essay (as they do a few others in my book). Note that it's really just a casual discussion of why I personally do not play tournaments. They are pretty different from live games, and I never much liked the differences, though in the very few trournaments I played I thought they were fun and I did pretty well. I just didn't like the whole idea of tournaments as opposed to live play -- almost as a lifestyle, ya know? Also, I do think you can make a case for live games being poker, while tournaments are a modification of poker in order to speed things up. They do so in a way that happens to increase the short term chance element.

Now that's totally off the top of my head in the space of about half a minute. So don't crucify me if I said something totally idiodic. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
perhaps you should think about what I'm saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the same old "You just can't beat bad players because they call too much and won't fold when they're beat".

[ QUOTE ]
The only way Gardner could win a big had otherwise was by showing RV the better hand, a hallmark of how you beat a bad player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then that's what he should have done instead of trying to make plays at a player who "couldn't fold".


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that bad players cant be beat because of their bad play at all, but what I am saying is that RV had such a lead against JG that he would call an allin at any time with any 2 half-reasonable cards, whereas a good player would not want to double up his opponent with an easily dominated hand, e.g. how paul Phillips played vs Dewey tomko that HU match on WPT. GUARANTEE RV calls probably half the hands PP folded. This took away virtually all of JG's opportunities to bluff, and if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise. AGain, RV showed early and often he's not afraid to risk a LOT of chips with very weak hands, thus QT becoming the hand of the tourney for him for the numerous times he won with it.....

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Varkonyi couldn't fold top pair mid kicker to a 2.5-1 check raise on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know the stacks involved here, but I don't think Varkonyi is the only person that would make this call. He is only losing to a better queen, an overpair or a 4, while there are many hands that he beats that might make this all-in check-raise. He probably knew Gardner was a better player and decided that this was his shot to win the tournament. I remember not thinking Varkonyi was a great player when watching WSOP 2002, but I don't think this hand is the best example of that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do somewhat agree with you here in the fact that one of RV's ONLY skill was realizing he was outmatched, and therefore did not try to spar too much with the other players. Kinda like Brer Rabbit(hope i have the right character here...)
" He is dumb, yet he KNOWS he is dumb, which almost makes him smart."
Earlier poster said he was called by AK, not called AK, if not sure, i'd heard he called it, but whatever, i suppose it depends immensly on the situation and circumstances, but QT not much of an allin hand in either case, and i'd heard PH was a moderate stack b4 this.

[felson]

[ QUOTE ]
Earlier poster said he was called by AK, not called AK, if not sure, i'd heard he called it, but whatever, i suppose it depends immensly on the situation and circumstances, but QT not much of an allin hand in either case, and i'd heard PH was a moderate stack b4 this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Varkonyi:

Then, the big hand came down between Phil and me. I was in late position and made a small raise. Phil made a big reraise, and I moved all in, sensing weakness on his part. He jumped up, took off his hat, and started screaming, “They keep coming over the top of me.” I couldn’t help laughing at him; he looked so silly. He finally called and we turned up our cards … Q-10 for me; A-K for Phil.

http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=12803

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that bad players cant be beat because of their bad play at all, but what I am saying is that RV had such a lead against JG that he would call an allin at any time with any 2 half-reasonable cards, whereas a good player would not want to double up his opponent with an easily dominated hand, e.g. how paul Phillips played vs Dewey tomko that HU match on WPT. GUARANTEE RV calls probably half the hands PP folded. This took away virtually all of JG's opportunities to bluff, and if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise. AGain, RV showed early and often he's not afraid to risk a LOT of chips with very weak hands, thus QT becoming the hand of the tourney for him for the numerous times he won with it.....

[/ QUOTE ]

You're just making it worse.

If you're telling me that you would prefer to play against a big stack that played well rather than a big stack that would call you with terrible hands, you're either intentionally being obtuse or you have no clue how to play poker.

scrub

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that bad players cant be beat because of their bad play at all, but what I am saying is that RV had such a lead against JG that he would call an allin at any time with any 2 half-reasonable cards, whereas a good player would not want to double up his opponent with an easily dominated hand, e.g. how paul Phillips played vs Dewey tomko that HU match on WPT. GUARANTEE RV calls probably half the hands PP folded. This took away virtually all of JG's opportunities to bluff, and if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise. AGain, RV showed early and often he's not afraid to risk a LOT of chips with very weak hands, thus QT becoming the hand of the tourney for him for the numerous times he won with it.....

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't make any sense to me.

It sounds like you're saying the loose calling strategy is a bad one, but in the next breath describing why it is so hard to beat in this situation.

If you think it was a good strategy, then your criticism is unwarranted.

Which is it?

eastbay

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
...if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be the crux of you problem. Your statement isn't even remotely close to being true.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that bad players cant be beat because of their bad play at all, but what I am saying is that RV had such a lead against JG that he would call an allin at any time with any 2 half-reasonable cards, whereas a good player would not want to double up his opponent with an easily dominated hand, e.g. how paul Phillips played vs Dewey tomko that HU match on WPT. GUARANTEE RV calls probably half the hands PP folded. This took away virtually all of JG's opportunities to bluff, and if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise. AGain, RV showed early and often he's not afraid to risk a LOT of chips with very weak hands, thus QT becoming the hand of the tourney for him for the numerous times he won with it.....

[/ QUOTE ]

You're just making it worse.

If you're telling me that you would prefer to play against a big stack that played well rather than a big stack that would call you with terrible hands, you're either intentionally being obtuse or you have no clue how to play poker.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, sit at the $200+15 NL SNG's w/ me for awhile, see what you think, then you tell ME what the answer is.
If you dont understand, it's not always as cut and dried as either I am wrong or you are wrong; jut maybe some deeper thought is required.
The fact of the matter is, if you have a skill advantage, you NEVER want to put all your money on the line without a sigificant edge. AGain, with bluffing as an option gone, all JG could do was hope he hit a hand.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be the crux of you problem. Your statement isn't even remotely close to being true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, dynasty, please tell me how you outplay someone if you can never bluff then, i'm all ears...

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be the crux of you problem. Your statement isn't even remotely close to being true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, dynasty, please tell me how you outplay someone if you can never bluff then, i'm all ears...

[/ QUOTE ]

Trapping for one, making them pay the proper price for draws, there are tons of ways, come on now.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

The fact of the matter is, if you have a skill advantage, you NEVER want to put all your money on the line without a sigificant edge. AGain, with bluffing as an option gone, all JG could do was hope he hit a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you see the inherent contradiction in what you're saying? You're describing a strategy that by your own evaluation makes it difficult for the opponent to win, and you're simultaneously criticizing that strategy.

Look, either the strategy was hard to beat or it was not. If it was, it was a good strategy by definition. If it was not a good strategy, then it should have been beatable.

Which is it?

eastbay

[Daliman]

"I was in late position and made a small raise. Phil made a big reraise, and I moved all in, sensing weakness on his part."-RV

As I said, ZERO instincts.

[Daliman]

oh, forget it. Think what you like about RV and his play. MY opinion is he's not very good and he would ALWAYS be a welcome sight at my table.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
oh, forget it. Think what you like about RV and his play. MY opinion is he's not very good and he would ALWAYS be a welcome sight at my table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to change the subject when cornered with logic.

eastbay

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
oh, forget it. Think what you like about RV and his play. MY opinion is he's not very good and he would ALWAYS be a welcome sight at my table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you had to play him headsup, presumably.

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
Also notable in 2002 was was is generally regarded as the WORST overall play ever by a prohibitive chip leader going into final table by John Shipley. He started the day with 2,033,000 in chips, and 2nd place was at 927,000, yet Shipley still managed to finish 7th, the worst finish ever by ANY chip leader at the final table, ( I'm pretty sure...)

[/ QUOTE ]

That one was a train wreck. He was getting run over from every direction right from the start. But even though he had lost half his chips, he was still in the lead when he called more than t750,000 with AJo. Ouch!

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
oh, forget it. Think what you like about RV and his play. MY opinion is he's not very good and he would ALWAYS be a welcome sight at my table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to change the subject when cornered with logic.

eastbay


[/ QUOTE ]

#1 I didn't change the subject, I acquiesced. Typical logician's response by you, however.
#2 Poker is not all logic. You run alot of simulations and know all the #'s for hot/cold, bt that hasn't made you the best in the world, has it? Trying thinking outside the box for once.

[Daliman]

If we started even, no problem whatsoever.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be the crux of you problem. Your statement isn't even remotely close to being true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, dynasty, please tell me how you outplay someone if you can never bluff then, i'm all ears...

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't be serious.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be the crux of you problem. Your statement isn't even remotely close to being true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, dynasty, please tell me how you outplay someone if you can never bluff then, i'm all ears...

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you dating CrisBrown?

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
If we started even, no problem whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you can't bluff him, therefore you have no chance <lol>.

And if your case depends on the fact that Varkonyi had a big chip lead over Gardner when it got headsup, the argument is even more ridiculous. Suppose you're trailing 5-1 in chips HU at the end of a tourney, with blinds still at a playable level. Would you rather have an opponent who makes marginal calls, and will risk doubling you up on any decent hand, while not being too aggressive himself? Or an opponent who's gonna guard the chips tightly, who's bluffable but is going to force you to either beat a big hand to double up, or grind it out a bit at a time? Seriously, your assertion was nonsensical.

Julian played his opponent wrong, that simple. And if you honestly think Varkonyi should have laid down QT on a Q44 board vs. and aggressive opponent, when he was already significantly invested in the pot, and would have had a 3-1 chip lead even if he lost that hand, then well...

[deacsoft]

Here is the story of Robert Varkonyi:

"What makes a WSOP champion a loser"

chapter 1

If Q-To is you're favorite hand you should either quit playing poker right now or just do your wife and bank account a favor and hang yourself. Q-To is a group 6 hand and he plays it like it's the nuts from anywhere.

chapter 2

He writes an article for Card Player magazine titled: "I'd Rather be Lucky Than Good". That's great Rob 'cause that's all you are. This will work out well for you because everyone in the world knows all you are is luck. Now you might look like there's one thing in this world that you realize. We are all so proud of you.

chapter 3

Now that he's the 2002 world champion he think he'll go back every year and wear his WSOP bracelet like it's going to get him a free ride home after he busts out on day 1. No one is going to respect you for some thing you're wearing around your wrist, Rob. Only for playing like you know what you're doing. You should have spent a little less time playing with it and some more time watching the table.

chapter 4

Besides the wrist wear he decides to bring his new poker "coach" to the 2003 WSOP. His coach is some guy who knows a thing or two about blackjack. Poker vs. Blackjack. A slightly different game there, Bobby. You could have got any fool to sit there and read out of a book to you and go through every possible senario. Good luck.

chapter 5

He gets an interview or special feature with ESNP for the 2003 WSOP and makes a complete ass out of himself. He says a bunch of stupid things like "I'm Robert 1.0...". What an idiot.

The End

[daryn]

the thing i don't get is, what's wrong with being the luckiest guy on earth, especially if the guy admits it!

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...if a poker player can't bluff, it's pretty hard to outplay otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be the crux of you problem. Your statement isn't even remotely close to being true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, dynasty, please tell me how you outplay someone if you can never bluff then, i'm all ears...

[/ QUOTE ]

Urm. Let me see. What's the word. Oh yeah. Value betting.

Your statement would make some sense if you add in that you are totally card dead or the blinds are so ridiculously high that you need to push on nearly every hand (and in that case, never folding isn't going to be a big mistake anyway).

I know that the latter wasn't true, and while I don't know if Gardner was totally card dead, I haven't heard that he was.

It seems like a great situation to me, if you know when you get a good hand you can very likely get all your chips in as a moderate to considerable favorite.

That said, I can't imagine *anyone* is a favorite when down 5-1 in chips heads up, no matter what the skill discrepancy (unless the chip leader, had in fact died and the hands were being dealt as some sort of courtesy).

Which brings up a totally unrelated point. What would happen if someone had a heart attack/stroke/bad car accident during the WSOP and either passed away or was unable to continue (in a coma/ordered to bedrest/hopped up on morphine)? Is there a provision by which an alternate can be named? Just curious.

[aaronjacobg]

i guess nothing if that is what u r resigned to be but i think that the real monkey here is the media for keeping on talking about this guy when every1 knows that he is a joke

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

For one, Varkonyi got an incredible run of cards in '02. However, in the '03 event, for the hands I saw, thought he played very well, just getting unlucky when his KK ran into AA. In fact, the bluff he runs on Scotty Nguyen is a real pro move.

He may not be a top-flight tournament player (nor does he think he is), but he seems reasonably good.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I agree, Daryn. It just amazes me how people want to run down guys like Varkonyi & Moneymaker. Seems they're both really nice guys who have not acted in any way entitled due to their good fortune.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

If Q-To is you're favorite hand you should either quit playing poker right now or just do your wife and bank account a favor and hang yourself. Q-To is a group 6 hand and he plays it like it's the nuts from anywhere.


[/ QUOTE ]

And if you're analyzing NLHE play using S&M hand groups, you should just quit posting. And playing.

eastbay

[Easy E]

Actually, I'm surprised you would even make such a shortsighted statement. Either you think I have no clue, or just didn't think it through, is I know you know what yer talking about

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Which brings up a totally unrelated point. What would happen if someone had a heart attack/stroke/bad car accident during the WSOP and either passed away or was unable to continue (in a coma/ordered to bedrest/hopped up on morphine)? Is there a provision by which an alternate can be named? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting question. Something like this must have happened once or twice in the past. My assumption is that no alternate would be allowed in any of these cases. If someone has a heart attack at the table during the first two or three days, I think they'd just have to let the person be blinded off. Perhaps if this happened at or near the final table, they might be able to come up with some kind of accommodation.

Email Matt Savage; maybe he will respond (http://tinyurl.com/2yWPT).

[ansky451]

I think that there is a difference between mm and varkonyi. MM may have gotten very lucky on some hands (especially the one with brenes...) but considering his experience he played very well, especially at the final table, and against farha. That call against dutch boyd was amazing, although it may have been too risky.

[legend42]

IMO, where Moneymaker is usually short-shrifted is in getting to the WSOP is the first place. I'm assuming he won, or placed very high in, at least two large field online satellites. That takes a hell of a lot of skill on its own, even given the high percentage of fish in those tourneys.

So, if MM had just ponied up the entry fee, or even won a $1000 one-table to qualify, and then had the same exact tourney, I might accept the idea that he just got lucky. But the way he did it, I think you have to give him his due. There just aren't any lucky streaks that carry you through *three* consecutive large field tourneys, unless you can also play some serious poker.

[curtains]

I think its very difficult to be an unknown player and win the WSOP, without the majority of serious players considering you to be an idiot, whether you play well or not.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its very difficult to be an unknown player and win the WSOP, without the majority of serious players considering you to be an idiot, whether you play well or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you saying (a) that if they don't consider you an idiot, it's difficult to win, or (b) that if you win, they will consider you an idiot?

[Your Mom]

You are only making the case that playing like a fish is the best way to play.

[curtains]

Im saying that its the nature of poker players, and people, to find reasons why those that are successful, are actually not good. Sometimes the critics may be accurate, sometimes they may not be.

[curtains]

Winning one online satellite doesnt take that much skill. They run them nonstop...if you play enough of them you will probably win eventually. You might spend 10k in the process however /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I do have the opinion that Moneymaker is actually a pretty good player. I also suspect hes improved quite a bit since his WSOP win.

[sketchy1]

zero instincts?

he makes a LP raise, and phil hellmuth, one of the most aggressive players at any table at any given time, makes a reraise. he doesn't need any type of hand to make that move.

varkonyi makes a misread, so what. i'm sure you would just run over hellmuth in the same place, right?

[trillig]

I am late on this but...

I agree with you 100%...

and Bay 101 WPT event will be the 2nd coming of MM... and shut some naysayers up finally that he was a one trick pony.

I'll delight in the reading of the critics of my play when I win the big one.... 8)

Sure some coin tosses must go your way to win, but skill and knowledge are definitely required too.

Robert V. deserves respect for his win, it's a milestone few hit and you can't train a monkey to play serious poker, I sent mine to the slots....

-Bri