Just moved up to 3/6 and need some feedback

[Guido]

I just moved up to 3/6. When I moved to 2/4 I played a little weak in the beginning so I want to make sure that won't happen again. But maybe it's happening again /images/graemlins/mad.gif. I have only played about 1200 hands so far but I see only about 12-16% of the flops. I think this has to do with the blind structure but I'm not sure. When I played at 2/4 I saw about 18-24% of the flop. Perhaps I haven't played enough but I'm not sure. It's normal that I don't call as much in the SB as I did at 2/4 right? I also noticed that the games are a little tighter than 2/4 so I can't limp with Axs and small PP as much as at 2/4. Here are three hands where I might have played a little weak. Please give me some feedback.

<font color="blue"> Hand 1</font>
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Guido is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Guido 3-bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Guido bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Button calls, Guido calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
Guido checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Button calls, Guido calls.

River: (11 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
Guido checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Button folds, Guido calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

I should have 3-bet the flop or check-raised the turn right? For some reason I put him on JJ or TT, yes I know this is stupid, but at the time I thought the only hand I was in front of were QQ and AK. I messed up /images/graemlins/mad.gif.

<font color="blue"> Hand 2 </font>
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Guido is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Guido raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Guido bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Guido bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (7.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Guido bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB folds, Guido calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB

The button was a calling station so should I 3-bet the river or was this one fine?
<font color="blue"> Hand 3 </font>
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Guido is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Guido calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Guido raises</font>, MP1 folds, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Guido bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (8 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
SB checks, Guido checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

I put the SB on overcards or perhaps a small pair. Was the river check weak?

Thanks,

Guido

[Kluddeludde]

It's normal that you don't see as many flops on 3/6 as 2/4, because of the reasons you mentioned.

As for the hands.

Hand 1:
3-bet the flop or check-raise the turn. If he still comes back at you, you might want to slow down.

Hand 2:
3-bet the river. I put him on a weaker queen. He would have probably come alive earlier if he has two pair or a straight.

Hand 3:
It is a close call. I don't think he would bet into the field, against a preflop raiser, with only two overcards. I put him on a 6 here or a pocket over 6 and it really depends on your read of SB whether to bet here or not. If he will call here with only a 6, go ahead, bet. If not, I would also be inclined to check it down.

Kludde

[Daggs911]

Hand 1: I would say 3-bet the flop. In my experience, 3/6 players are just as loose as 2/4 players, just more aggressive. You're probably way ahead. If the board were less scary, I might just call and try for a check-raise on the turn. But there are so many cards that could hurt you.

Hand 2: Eh, probably doesn't matter whether you call or raise. Is it more likely that he made a straight/boat or that he made trips with a bad kicker/bluffing? Hard to tell, but I'd probably re-raise. I've noticed that at 3/6 a good number of players will bluff-raise the river when a scary card comes.

Hand 3: I don't think checking behind here is that bad. But what did you think he had? You raised pre-flop, and he is going to bet into you with overcards? Unlikely. He'd probably check-call with overcards. I put him on a small pair or a 6. Maybe a crappy straight draw. I would bet the river because I think he'll call with a lot of worse hands.

My flop % at 2/4 was about 18.8%. My flop % at 3/6 is about 16.5%. But I'm a little on the tight side. The best advice I can give is to be a little more game-selective. In general the 3/6 games are very loose, but if you're not careful, you'll find yourself in blind-stealing contests. And as always, the real suckers play at night.

Best of luck, Matt

[Luke]

You will see less flops because of the smaller blind structure. Not only does it cause to you to complete less often, but you should also be stealing the blinds slightly less because of the smaller initial pot.

Hand 1: I'd call the flop and then checkraise that harmless turn card. If MP1 is a typical aggressive Party 3-6 player he could be raising with a wide range of hands on this flop that he also raised but did not cap with preflop (in rough order of likelihood - AJ, QQ, JT, KJ, KQ, Axd, AA, JJ, TT, KK).

Hand 2: I think the river call is OK if the button is truly a passive calling station. But against most Party 3-6 players, I think you should reraise here and expect to see something like Q8.

Hand 3: This river bet is player dependent but I'd follow through with a river bet against most Party 3-6 opponents and expect to see 6x.

Good luck with the transition.

Luke

[Guido]

I didn't raise preflop in hand 3... thanks for your advice though.

Guido

[Luke]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I would say 3-bet the flop. In my experience, 3/6 players are just as loose as 2/4 players, just more aggressive. You're probably way ahead. If the board were less scary, I might just call and try for a check-raise on the turn. But there are so many cards that could hurt you.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the fact that there are so many cards that can hurt you on the turn is an argument to simply call the flop raise and see what the turn brings. If it's a diamond, completes the straight, or a jack, you can check and see what develops - safely folding if it comes 2 bets back to you. If you like the turn card, then I'd go for the checkraise against MP1 who I still think I'm ahead of and a button who is likely drawing to the straight or flush. Wait to see a harmless turn card that greatly increases your chances of winning the pot before putting more money in.

If 3-betting the flop gave you some chance of knocking out players then I'd say go ahead. But you have a much better chance of losing someone if you checkraise the turn.

Luke

[BugsBunny]

Yes you'll be seeing less flops, mostly due to the blind structure. I complete the SB much less often in 3/6 then I do in 2/4. Someone mentioned that you should steal less due to the smaller structure. I'd say that it's actually about the same. The smaller structure is somewhat offset by the fact that the rake is smaller then in 2/4. Also the SB should defend less often, which makes it a little easier to steal the blinds (player dependent of course). So smaller rake + larger chance of success offsets smaller structure to a large degree (IMHO).

As far as the hands go:

Hand1: I would 3 bet the flop here. The flush and str8 draws, if out there, aren't going away, so extract money from them while you know they're still behind. I also want to see if I get 4 bet here. If you're behind here the most likely candidates (all realistic possibilities) are JJ, TT and JT. With MP1 raising preflop - and no other information on him - JJ and TT would be more likely - but there are a lot of other possibilities for MP1's hand as well (AJ is a very real possibility for one. QQ is possible. Player dependent something like 88 or 99 or AT are also possible). AQ diamonds may raise here, and some players may raise with any AQ/K.

If the flop wasn't quite so co-ordinated I would probably smooth call the flop and go for the c/r on the turn, but as it is I 3 bet the flop.

On the turn I would lead out (assuming I 3 bet the flop - whether it got capped or not). If I smoothcalled the flop I would go for a c/r here. In either case if I ger raised/re-raised I call and slowdown on the river (check-call).

On the river here, as it actually played out, I bet out and call a raise. You really don't have enough information to think you're behind here.
--

Hand2: It depends on what type of calling stations. Some calling stations are so passive that they almost never raise (except sometimes on the river), and when they do they usually have a very strong hand (in this case that would mean he either has the case Q or has the str8, or possibly a boat). If he's like that then I think the way you played it is just fine. Some other calling stations will sometimes bluff or raise with weaker hands (such as holding a J in this case). If he's that type of player then I would re-raise here.
--

Hand3: meh. It's fine either way. He probably has a small pair (maybe paired the 6). But he could have the 3 and be waiting to c/r you here - figuring that you've been aggressive enough that you'll bet the river. I don't think he's on overcards - most people won't stick around with overcards on a paired board if someone raises it. Plus he semi-coldcalled BT preflop raise, so a smaller pair seems most likely. If he was on overcards then he probably hit his K - otherwise he would have been gone on the turn.

[sfer]

The only thing I do differently is 3-bet the flop and lead the turn in Hand 1. Hands 2 and 3 look fine to me.

Don't read to much into only 1200 hands.

[rigoletto]

I think the fact that there are so many cards that can hurt you on the turn is an argument to simply call the flop raise and see what the turn brings.

I don't like giving free cards on a board like this period.

[Luke]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like giving free cards on a board like this period.

[/ QUOTE ]

By betting and only calling a raise, you're not really giving a "free card", you're giving a cheaper card than if you raised. You're not losing anyone by 3-betting and you don't have much more pot equity than a flush draw or a straight at this point. So why not wait until the turn to see if you like your hand more and then put in the raise and actually "charge" your opponents if they are drawing or behind. And you might lose some opponents that way which you wouldn't mind in this large pot.

If you're afraid of giving a free card on the turn then go ahead and bet out instead of checkraising. But that to me is opponent dependent.

Luke

[Daggs911]

Luke,

You suggest smooth-calling the flop and check-raising the turn if it doesn't bring a flush or straight card.

But this play depends on your opponent actually betting the turn, which he probably won't do if he misses his draw. On a board like that, his raise could easily have been an attempt to buy a free card. If that's the case, your check on the turn (attempting to checkraise) allows him to see the river for free. For the same reasons you would try to buy a free card if you had a draw, you need to prevent your opponent from seeing the river for only a 1/2 BB.

In addition, 3-betting on the flop will help guide your strategy for the rest of the hand. If you get capped, you're likely up against top two, a set, or a monster draw. If you are only called, you will have a better idea of what cards hurt you.

That said, I still think 3-betting the flop and betting out the turn is the best play. I don't even think it's close.

Best of luck, Matt

[Daggs911]

Sorry bout' that, misread. I would actually 3-bet here with 99, but that might be a little aggressive given your position.

If you only called, overcards certainly seem like a possibility. Good check on the river.

Best of luck, Matt

[Luke]

[ QUOTE ]
You suggest smooth-calling the flop and check-raising the turn if it doesn't bring a flush or straight card. But this play depends on your opponent actually betting the turn, which he probably won't do if he misses his draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is where opponent reads come into play. I suggested the check-raise but leading the turn might be the right play depending on your opponents' tendencies. If your opponent is aggressive and will likely continue with a semi-bluff or top pair, then go for the checkraise. If you think there's a reasonable chance the turn could get checked through, then you can bet out.

Luke