Two river value bets?

[Ulysses]

New to the table. Don't know anything about these guys. Two questions.

1) Pre-flop?
2) River?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: akshawnd is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP raises, CO calls, akshawnd calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
BB checks, MP checks, CO checks, akshawnd bets, BB calls, MP calls, CO folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, MP checks, akshawnd bets, BB folds, MP calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, akshawnd checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP shows Kd Js (one pair, kings).
akshawnd shows Qh Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: akshawnd wins 7.75 BB. </font>

Another new table, also no info on opponents.

Bet the river?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: akshawnd is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP posts a blind of $10. UTG posts a blind of $10.
UTG (poster) checks, MP (poster) raises, akshawnd 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, akshawnd bets, MP calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, akshawnd bets, MP calls.

River: (7.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
MP checks, akshawnd checks.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP shows 3h 3d (one pair, threes).
akshawnd shows Qh Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: akshawnd wins 7.25 BB. </font>

[NLSoldier]

Hand 1- PF i think this is worth a 3 bet. I cant criticize the river play too much because i find myself doing the same thing quite a bit. I think its very close.

Hand 2-Here i think checking is usually better because a worse hand will be just as scared of the ace as you are and probably fold, a king will still call, and an ace will likely check raise.

[Ulysses]

I edited and added a second hand while you were responding...

[NLSoldier]

I edited and added a reply to your 2nd hand while you were responding to my response /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[PuffsNutz]

Preflop, KQ and KQs is one of the few hands I prefer
to just cold-call a raise with.

River: Before I cheated and peaked I was thinking
that you Check-Check if BB had called, but I
would bet everytime if HU with preflop raiser.
Preflop raiser is clearly afraid of Ace if he
hasnt bet into or raised you yet..
But you will win this river bet more than your fair
share quite easily...Perhaps higher than 80% even
(sound high?)

Once in a while you run into the tricky-bad player
that waits till the river to checkraise.

[Diplomat]

First hand:

BET THE RIVER. No reason to believe he has an ace.

Second hand:

Looks pretty standard, except me thinks an utg post and mp post in a 6-max game is not a sign of solid poker players.

-Diplomat

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
River: Before I cheated and peaked I was thinking
that you Check-Check if BB had called, but I
would bet everytime if HU with preflop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, that is just so right. The fact that PFR is the one doing the check-calling is a critical point. He'll have a smaller pocket pair or worse King way more than enough of the time. I agree w/ you that it's very high and your 80% number might be close.

This is part of the problem w/ multi-tabling. Had I realized it was PFR still in the hand and thought this through, you're absolutely right - easy bet. But I wasn't actually sure who was still in there, so I thought they could be in there w/ Ace-rag - a hand PFR would almost always bet out with.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
BET THE RIVER. No reason to believe he has an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading your and PuffsNutz' responses, I'm kinda embarrassed about that hand.

[rtrombone]

Hand 1 is such an obvious value bet that I believe you when you say you were distracted by action on other tables. You will get called by worse kings, QQ, JJ, 88, etc. etc.

Hand 2 is closer, as if I were MP I could very easily have a king. My default (as MP) would've been to bet the river, unless I knew you were good enough to fold any hand I beat...

The more I play, though, the more I believe that bet-bots on the river get paid, plain and simple. If this guy's a standard fish he could easily have a nine, and just a nine. To think you could've maybe value-bet 55 here...damn.

[gonores]

I guess there is no need to pile on to the Hand 1 river play, but I wanted to chime in and say I three-bet this preflop most of the time.

I like Hand 2 lots.

[DrSavage]

I think you played both of these fine.

[Renaud Desferet]

I haven't seen the results yet.
#1 hand
I would three bet on the first hand on the button and take control of the hand. Not betting the river is an horrible mistake in my opinion.
#2 hand
I would still bet against an unkown opponent as I would expect him to come out betting the river if he has the ace, but it is closer and would depend more on the opponent : how would he play a small pair in that hand?, how would he play acex with x=2 or 9? Wouldn't he fold acex, with x&lt;&gt;2 or 9etc...? Basically I would bet against passive opponents and would check against agressive opponents as I had to hear from them before with hands I beat.

[Schneids]

Hand 1: I have two words for you. I'll leave you to guess what those two words are /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hand 2: Checking or betting seems fine to me. I get called down here by AJ or AT all the time, so it really doesn't surprise me much anymore if that rivered ace helped their hand. I probably value bet, but I suspect I'm losing a bet when I get called maybe 40-45% of the time.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Not betting the river is an horrible mistake in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was chatting w/ someone and "horrible" is the exact word I used as well. There's really very little way a PFR can have an Ace here.

I posted these hands for two reasons. One, I thought these were some of the bigger flubs I've made in quite a while, due in part to not paying enough attention. Two, both of these involved me at tables w/ unfamiliar opponents, so they are situations where we're really looking for the best default play here. With that in mind, the second hand...

[ QUOTE ]
how would he play a small pair in that hand?, how would he play acex with x=2 or 9? Wouldn't he fold acex, with x&lt;&gt;2 or 9etc...?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a default opponent might stick around w/ the following hands: A2, A9, AT, AJ, AQ. AT/AJ/AQ are more likely to be raised pre-flop and more likely to be folded on the turn than A2/A9, so the combined action makes it less likely he has an Ace. Other Aces likely get folded on the turn. 88,TT,JJ,9T,9J,Q9 are all possible hands that could call me on the turn. A reasonable number of them probably auto-call the river after calling the turn. Given the combination of hands and the fact that he checked the river, I think betting is probably slightly better v. an unknown opponent.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I have two words for you. I'll leave you to guess what those two words are /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Those two words are not 'value bet.'

[BookOfIcculus]

Is either one happy or birthday?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Is either one happy or birthday?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I'm pretty sure you can find the two words in his "Clown of the Week" thread.

[PokerNoob]

I'm just learning shorthanded (and doing ok at this point on 6-max 1/2 and 2/4), so I'll probably ask a lot of stupid questions, forgive me.

Hand 1: The only danger I see is a case of "buyers remorse" for somebody that pf raised a crappy ace, got a bunch of callers and now just wants to ride it out. If you were the opponent with KJo, how would you play this hand? Particularly if it was threebet behind you?

Hand 2: Will he call your river bet with anything less than an ace or king? I don't like his raising of pocket threes with a poster in front and 3 yet to act. Perhaps I'm not aggro enough. How would you play preflop if you had 87s instead of QQ in this situation?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
The only danger I see is a case of "buyers remorse" for somebody that pf raised a crappy ace, got a bunch of callers and now just wants to ride it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If PFR has an Ace, he'll almost always bet out at least once to see what's what.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were the opponent with KJo, how would you play this hand? Particularly if it was threebet behind you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, w/ aggressive CO and Button, I'll usually muck pre-flop. If I raise, whether it's 3-bet or not, I'm going to lead on this flop and take things from there. If there's a raise and a call, I'm probably not going much further with the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Will he call your river bet with anything less than an ace or king?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Once a guy w/ a pair calls the turn, he'll very often call the river.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like his raising of pocket threes with a poster in front and 3 yet to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like his pre-flop raise a lot. He's often going to get the button and get it HU or 3-way v. a poster and/or blind w/ position.

[ QUOTE ]
How would you play preflop if you had 87s instead of QQ in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Insta-muck.