River checkraise.....

[Ulysses]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: akshawnd A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, akshawnd raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB <font color="purple">(Overaggro Non-Idiot)</font> calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, Overaggro Non-Idiot bets, akshawnd raises, SB folds, Overaggro Non-Idiot 3-bets, akshawnd caps, Overaggro Non-Idiot calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Overaggro Non-Idiot checks, akshawnd bets, Overaggro Non-Idiot calls.

River: (9 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Overaggro Non-Idiot checks, akshawnd bets, Overaggro Non-Idiot raises

We capped it on the flop. I get checkraised w/ one pair on the river. This guy is not very good, but he's not a complete idiot. Against a non-idiot, is one pair ever good here? Anyone find this fold?

Results in white below: <font color="white">

akshawnd calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Overaggro Non-Idiot shows Ks 2s (flush, king high).
akshawnd shows Ad Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Overaggro Non-Idiot wins 13 BB. </font>

[Vehn]

I pay off and say "oh".

[James282]

I would have figured him for KT. But I wouldn't have found a fold.
-James

[NLSoldier]

Pretty tough to fold this but also pretty tough to come up with a hand he might have that you can beat. This call may have more EV in terms of players not taking shots at you on the river than in terms of winning this pot.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
This call may have more EV in terms of players not taking shots at you on the river than in terms of winning this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point, but I'm not sure that this scenario would come up enough times to matter. Sometimes I'll have a 3-bet hand and other times I'll have an easy call. It's a specific combination of board and action that makes me sometimes feel that there's no way against an even vaguely reasonable player that one pair is good.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a specific combination of board and action that makes me sometimes feel that there's no way against an even vaguely reasonable player that one pair is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate that feeling!

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I pay off and say "oh".

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have figured him for KT. But I wouldn't have found a fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I pay off too, but some ramblings from chat:

raise preflop. cap the flop. bet the turn. bet the river. does any non-maniac EVER bluff-checkraise there? (or value checkraise KQ) I think not

if i can find that river fold against the right opponents, i think that could actually be like a .5BB/100 or something increase (no idea at all what the actual number would be)

i think finding river folds against non-idiot opponents is the last frontier for good players at 6-max

we all get so trained to pay off the super-aggro morons that we pay off too much vs. the non-morons

i'd rather save some of those bets to call down the morons w/ ace-high

[Kenrick]

You'd have to figure out how many bets you lose by incorrectly folding for that last bet relative to the post size, of course. Folding with a bad read might cost a whole bunch of big bets that would have been won.

In this instance, he may not be an idiot, but you do say he's overly aggressive. I don't think it's out of line to think an overaggressive player might be pushing KQ here. He's probably not, but "probably not" might be worth one more bet to make sure since you are getting 10:1 odds on the call. A smaller pot would make the decision easier.

Who knows, maybe he has AK and is pushing it just like you are.

[Your Mom]

I pay off and say [censored]

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
i think finding river folds against non-idiot opponents is the last frontier for good players at 6-max

[/ QUOTE ] You are almost certainly right. I've been really trying to find folds like this, but I have trouble establishing the line where I should be finding them. Maybe one pair(excluding an overpair, let's say?) is good, although there are more specific situations where the same is true...like yesterday I raised on a board of AdJdTd3c2d when I had the Qd and folded to a 3 bet from a reasonable and relatively passive player. I think once I get into situations like this, very specifically in the 10/20 sixmax, I wind up calling and justifying that it's for "information" when I definitely know I'm beat. I'll keep my eyes peeled for situations like this and post them.
-James