turned a set, but I'm not liking it very much

[cold_cash]

Pretty loose/passive table. Every now and then there's some spastic, eratic aggression after the flop.

I'm worried about my decision/action on the turn.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO (poster) calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 11 BB, between Hero and MP1.</font>

Checking the turn here didn't feel right.

I didn't want to give him a free card, but I can't fold to a raise, either.

What do you guys think?

[rigoletto]

Checking the turn here didn't feel right. That's because it's wrong.

I think you should bet the turn, call a raise and bet the river no matter what falls.

[JDErickson]

I agree with Rigoletto here.

[cold_cash]

I was with you right up until the "bet the river no matter what falls" part.

I didn't like calling the single bet on the river, much less calling a raise.

I'm beginning to agree with you that I did botch the turn though.

[btspider]

I think you should bet the turn, call a raise and bet the river no matter what falls.

can you explain this thought process? does he bet the river if he's playing the board? does he call a river raise if a blank drops? ..if a diamond drops?

if your opponent is capable of semi-bluffing two pair or a flush draw*, i can see the value of betting out on the river when a blank drops and paying off a raise. however, my weak tight side is ringing alarms about made straights with freerolls to the flush, so i want to understand where the value of the river bet 'no matter what' comes from.

* EDIT: nevermind.. he won't call a river bet since he can't hold a pair other than 5.

[Schmed]

yeah I bet the turn and call a raise, check call the river.

I like a raise sometimes preflop. Not everytime but I really don't like just calling out of position with this holding. A real loose passive, 2-4 table, I probably limp there too.

[LetsRock]

I hate it when my set builds a flush or straight and it never fails that whenever I do flop my set the board is very coordinated. (I know, I know - boo friggin hoo)

Anyway, bet the turn. Remember that the board is scary to EVERYONE who's not on the straight draw. You may take it down right there. Call a raise. You still have 10 outs even if the straight is made! Check/call the river if it was raised on the turn unless it brings a 3-flush and there's raises in front of you. This type of board could just as easily make 2 pr for someone as a straight.

This hand is much more dangerous in NL, but in limit you gotta see it through vs. one opponent. A friend of mine, who is a long time poker player, is fond of saying "If you don't lose a lot of money on a set, you didn't play it right." (Or something like that.) His point being that a set is a pretty strong hand and you shouldn't be afraid to bet it.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should bet the turn, call a raise and bet the river no matter what falls.

can you explain this thought process? does he bet the river if he's playing the board? does he call a river raise if a blank drops? ..if a diamond drops?

if your opponent is capable of semi-bluffing two pair or a flush draw*, i can see the value of betting out on the river when a blank drops and paying off a raise. however, my weak tight side is ringing alarms about made straights with freerolls to the flush, so i want to understand where the value of the river bet 'no matter what' comes from.

* EDIT: nevermind.. he won't call a river bet since he can't hold a pair other than 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

A turn raise from your opponent could be many things: top pair, semibluff straight- or flush-draw, stone cold bluff or the made straight. I don't want to 3-bet my set because it'll only scare away hands that are drawing slim, I want to see the river (boat draw) and would hate to pay of a 4-bet to do it. I bet the river because: I probably have the best hand and I don't want to see top pair or top two check behind and I can fold to a raise from most opponents - and in this case I bet because A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif will call even if he missed his flush. If the opponent is particularly tricky I'll consider check/calling unless the flush gets there in which case I bet.

[PokerBob]

BetBetBet. You are probably ahead, (what would MP2 raise with pre-flop that would contain a 9 or a 4? You say the table is passive, so my guess is 99 only. FWIW I bet he has AdKd and when you showed weakness on the turn he figured he'd take a stab.) Even if he has the straight, your 10 outs to fill up give you great odds. IMO a set should either make you very rich or very poor, if it did neither you probably played it wrong.

[Bob T.]

Bet the turn, call a raise. If your opponent has a straight, you still have 10 outs on the river. If not, you might have given him a free card that you didn't want to give.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[jonnyv]

You are probably beat here on the turn as the flop action looks like he was on a draw. Bet the turn and call a raise. Check the river and pay him off.

[nolanfan34]

So...what did MP1 have in the end anyway? Did I miss that post? Curious if he had the straight or not.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn, call a raise. If your opponent has a straight, you still have 10 outs on the river. If not, you might have given him a free card that you didn't want to give.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the best way to go about it.

He showed the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and took it.

[cold_cash]

The main villian limped in here. The pre-flop raiser folded the flop.

[PokerBob]

My fault. This clearly could change the read, but I think you still play it basically the same. Bet the best hand until you have reason to believe it isn't.

[LetsRock]

IMO, the results of a hand like this don't really matter. The discussion deals with the concept that we don't know what he has and how to deal with the situation.

The results are important only vs. this player - it gives you a bit of read on what he may call a raise with and how far he will chase a hand. Other than that, the results are meaningless. We're trying to discover what approaches to this situation we all use and find effective and we how we come to make the decisions we do.

Don't be too results oriented, be correct decision making oriented.

I don't mean to be harsh; I just wanted to make a point that we need to focus on the plan and not the results - the results will take care of themselves.

[cold_cash]

In retrospect, without being able to provide a good read on what kind of a player I was up against, I think betting the turn, calling a raise, then check/calling the river unimproved would have been the best way to play it.

Of course I could be mistaken. I'm going to have to think about it a little more.

[tripdad]

this is a tough hand. how about this line?

flop: BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, BB folds, Hero RAISES, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

turn: Hero bets, MP2 folds, CO folds.

if MP1 calls 2 cold on flop, when you bet the turn, you can safely fold when he raises. also, you may just take it down on the flop when MP2 folds to your check/raise.

cheers!
p.s. i probably would have played it just like you on the flop, and lost more money when i bet the turn.