Ray Zee u r such a pansy [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Cptkernow

04-15-2004, 11:26 AM

If you own a gun/s that is the gun most likely to kill you.

Therefore buy a squeeze grip. These guns also need a squeeze of the grip to discharge.(+Triger obviously)

An attacker (who has disarmed you and is now threatening you with your own weapon) will probably not realize this and his confusion at failing to spread your brains across the wall may give you the edge that results in your survival.

PS I am a brit and have never even seen a gun (thankfully) but I heard an ex SAS soldier currently working as a body gaurd give this info on radio 4.

Wake up CALL

04-15-2004, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you own a gun/s that is the gun most likely to kill you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true for most Americans.

Boris

04-15-2004, 11:55 AM

well you got me there ray. i am computer geek. I'm going to down to the gun shop to order the 340pd you mentioned. thanks for the advice.

Boris

04-15-2004, 12:02 PM

I havn't wanted to kick anybody's ass for about 10 years now. The point is that you should have the ability protect yourself from thugs and people who can kick the crap out of your or stab you or whatever. Someday if you have a family you will have an obligation to protect them and I don't care how tough you think you are, there are always threats that are physically more powerful than yourself.

Also, even back in the days when I would (rarely) fight, it was often a crap shoot as to who will win. If you get the jump on some guy and land the first punch you will probably do OK.

John Cole

04-15-2004, 12:07 PM

Ray,

I've decided to go with the Ruger Super Redhawk. I figure I can stop both humans and elephants from breaking into the house.

benfranklin

04-15-2004, 12:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you own a gun/s that is the gun most likely to kill you.

Therefore buy a squeeze grip. These guns also need a squeeze of the grip to discharge.(+Triger obviously)

An attacker (who has disarmed you and is now threatening you with your own weapon) will probably not realize this and his confusion at failing to spread your brains across the wall may give you the edge that results in your survival.

PS I am a brit and have never even seen a gun (thankfully) but I heard an ex SAS soldier currently working as a body gaurd give this info on radio 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never seen a gun, and you are giving advise about them. Have you ever considered working for our government?

Every "fact" in your post is unsubstantiated hearsay. You may even be qualified as a government consultant.

Gamblor

04-15-2004, 12:28 PM

Someday if you have a family you will have an obligation to protect them and I don't care how tough you think you are, there are always threats that are physically more powerful than yourself.

Perhaps your police force needs more funding.

A competent, honest police force is the precise reason that we don't need guns.

Also, even back in the days when I would (rarely) fight, it was often a crap shoot as to who will win. If you get the jump on some guy and land the first punch you will probably do OK.

I don't mind fighting (I'm not a particular fan of it either), but it's a regular occurence in Junior lacrosse and hockey games. Expected, really.

TAFKAn

04-15-2004, 12:34 PM

G:"Perhaps your police force needs more funding. A competent, honest police force is the precise reason that we don't need guns."

Please god tell me he's being sarcastic. I can't quite tell.

TAFKAn

Gamblor

04-15-2004, 12:39 PM

Where I live, the police are good people. They're respected. They're fast to respond and they're helpful. They joke around with people on the street. And 4 million people live in my city.

That's just the way it is. And I like it. And so does everyone else.

I feel sorry for you if that's not the case, and certainly can see why you would feel like you needed a gun.

Frankly, I want to live my life without worrying about that sort of stuff, and for the most part, I don't.

Cptkernow

04-15-2004, 12:49 PM

The dissemination of informtion relies much on the repeating of information from reputable sources.

SAS+ Radio 4. You dont get much more reputable than this.
If you hear something on Radio 4 you can garantee that it is TRUE.

You are 76% more lilely to be killed with your own weapon than that of a weapon belonging to another individual.
Think being killed by

1. Accident
2. Wife/Kids
3. Suicide
4. Being disarmed.
(Criminal Census Burea 2003)

HDPM

04-15-2004, 01:00 PM

Ummmm, is that an Israeli flag in your posts? I think you should try to get the Israelis to adopt this policy. You are talking crazy talk in this thread.

ThaSaltCracka

04-15-2004, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps your police force needs more funding.

[/ QUOTE ]
perhaps your right.

[ QUOTE ]
A competent, honest police force is the precise reason that we don't need guns.

[/ QUOTE ]
In think this is a bit naive of you. you seem to assume that you will never encounter a criminal with a weapon because of your police. You can go on thinking that, but don't be surprised if someone robs you on the streets of Toronto with a knife or gun.

Cops can only do so much. They can't be every where all the time. Oh wait this is Canada were talking about.... you guys do everything perfectly up there, there probably is a cop on every corner, and you must not have any crime.

HDPM

04-15-2004, 01:04 PM

This must be why the SAS used the Browning Hi Power for years. That weapon is similar to a 1911 .45 but John Browning saw the folly of a grip safety and took it off. So the Hi Power only has a thumb safety and was designed to be carried cocked. This SAS guy is a typical gun control idiot.

P.S. I not only have seen a Browning hi power, but heaven forbid I own one and have even shot it. I think I will carry it one day soon in honor of the SAS guy. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

ThaSaltCracka

04-15-2004, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Where I live, the police are good people.

[/ QUOTE ]
atleast the ones you have encountered. For every nice cop I have met, there is always an [censored] one waiting around the corner. Ask the people in the lower class communities of Toronto if the like the cops. Again ( and I hope I am not offending you) I think you are being naive.

[ QUOTE ]
I feel sorry for you if that's not the case, and certainly can see why you would feel like you needed a gun.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think there are probably some places in Canada were people might think they need a gun.

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I want to live my life without worrying about that sort of stuff, and for the most part, I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]
Where I live, I also do not worry about someone having a gun, but again I live in the Suburbs, where for the most part the cops are nice. But again, I am white male in a middle class enviroment.

Gamblor

04-15-2004, 01:12 PM

I think you should try to get the Israelis to adopt this policy. You are talking crazy talk in this thread.

Not sure exactly what you're talking about here.

The army acts more like a police force than an army, due to the nature of the enemy:

- hiding in civilian areas
- attacking civilians
- commiting crimes against civilians (as opposed to traditional warfare)

But this is not the Palestinian police, as the Palestinian Arabs, as a group, are not (nor have ever wanted to be, until recently) citizens of Israel, and as such are not afforded the rights of a citizen of Israel.

Interesting how today Arafat, the leader of the Palestine Liberation Organization (implying a Palestinian nation must exist separately from a Jewish nation) demands a Right of Return.

It isn't policy for Israel. It's a way of life.

ThaSaltCracka

04-15-2004, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SAS+ Radio 4. You dont get much more reputable than this.
If you hear something on Radio 4 you can garantee that it is TRUE.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are gullable if you believe everything you hear from the media is 100% true. I am not saying the info you have is false, I am just saying you should always be somewhat skeptical about what the media tells you.

Although, I agree with you, there is a lot of stastical evidence to support your claim.

superleeds

04-15-2004, 01:32 PM

The following statistics were are the latest available from the National SAFE KIDS Campaign:

INJURY AND DEATH RATES:

Approximately 1,500 children, ages 14 and under, are treated annually in hospital emergency rooms for unintentional firearm-related injuries.

In 1997, 142 children, ages 14 and under, died from unintentional firearm-related injuries; 85 percent of those children were between the ages of 10 and 14.

Nearly 10 times as many children die from unintentional firearm-related injuries in the US than in the next 25 industrialized countries combined.

In 1998, non-powder gun-related injuries (for example, BB guns or pellet guns) sent more than 10,000 children to hospital emergency rooms for treatment.

WHERE AND WHEN:

Most unintentional firearm-related deaths among children occur in or around the home; 50 percent at the home of the victim, and 40 percent at the home of a friend or relative.

The presence of a firearm in the home increases the risk of unintentional firearm-related death among children (especially if the firearm is loaded and kept unlocked).

Most unintentional firearm-related child deaths involve guns that were loaded and accessible, and occur when children play with the gun.

Up to one-half of firearm owners keep their firearms loaded and ready for use some of the time.

Most unintentional shootings among children occur in the late afternoon, on the weekend, and during summer months when children are most likely to be unsupervised.

Rural areas have higher incidences of unintentional firearm-related injuries, as well as higher rates of firearm ownership.

WHO:

Approximately 3.3 million children in the US live in households with firearms that are, at times, kept loaded and unlocked.

Boys are more likely to suffer unintentional firearm-injuries or die from an unintentional shooting than girls. More than 85 percent of children ages 14 and under who die from unintentional shootings are boys.

African-American children, ages 14 and under, are twice as likely to die from an unintentional shooting than Caucasian children.

Children living in the South are three times more likely to die from unintentional shootings than children living in the Northeast.

As many as 80 percent of first and second graders know where their parents' gun is kept.

Some 3-year-olds are strong enough to pull the trigger of many handguns.

source (http://www.lpch.org/diseasehealthinfo/healthlibrary/safety/frarmsta.html)

Gamblor

04-15-2004, 01:34 PM

Ask the people in the lower class communities of Toronto if the like the cops. Again ( and I hope I am not offending you) I think you are being naive.

Of course they don't, cause the cops have to be tougher there.

Why?

Because the guns are there. And the cop takes way more precaution. And people blame the cops or the government for their unsuccessful lives. Blame blame blame.

No guns, there's no fear on the cop's part, and thus no need for cops to use excessive force

HDPM

04-15-2004, 01:34 PM

What I am saying is that Israel spends a lot more on police than we do. Because I agree the army serves a lot of police functions. And yet it is inadequate. So the citizens have arms.

Look, you are kidding yourself if you think the police can prevent much crime. They are good at taking reports after the fact. Well, not always so good at it, but they will show up and look busy and collect some evidence sometimes.

HDPM

04-15-2004, 01:42 PM

Now you are really kidding yourself. If people don't have guns cops won't use excessive force? The reason cops use excessive force has nothing to do with whether somebody is armed. Almost by definition, the worst abuses are when people aren't armed.

Sloats

04-15-2004, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you own a gun/s that is the gun most likely to kill you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true for most Americans.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you own a rope, that is the rope you are most likely to hang yourself to death with.

ThaSaltCracka

04-15-2004, 02:20 PM

put yourself in their shoes.
They get pulled over for no reason, they get searched for no reason, they get abused for no reason.
I am not here to blame the government or the police for their shitty lives. But I going to blame the cops for the shitty treatment the poor get from them.

A lot of people in poorer communities don't like or trust the cops. A lot of them feel like they live in a police state. Cops every where watching them, questioning them. Don't put all the blame on the poor it goes both ways.

Like I said I think you are being naive. Talk to someone who lives in those communities about what they think of the cops. There is a lot of mistrust.

If you want to see real results in the poorer communities you need positive interaction with the people and the police, and this can only happen if they trust each other, much like what goes on in the nicer communities. Like you said, where you live the cops are respected, they chat with the people and respond quickly to crimes. In the poorer neighborhoods they break down doors, beat people(not all the time), profile groups, and respond much slower to crimes.

Not everyone that is poor is a criminal.

ThaSaltCracka

04-15-2004, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now you are really kidding yourself. If people don't have guns cops won't use excessive force? The reason cops use excessive force has nothing to do with whether somebody is armed. Almost by definition, the worst abuses are when people aren't armed

[/ QUOTE ]
Two words:
Rodney King

benfranklin

04-15-2004, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The dissemination of informtion relies much on the repeating of information from reputable sources.

SAS+ Radio 4. You dont get much more reputable than this.
If you hear something on Radio 4 you can garantee that it is TRUE.

[/ QUOTE ]

You believe something you know nothing about because a hired goon claiming to be SAS says it on the radio? How many wannabe tough guys in the UK are "ex-SAS"?

The squeeze-grip safety you talk about works automatically if you hold the handgun in a normal grip. You don't have to know it is there or how it works. All it is designed to do is to prevent the gun from firing if it is dropped or if the trigger is accidently hit while the gun is not in your grip. Your "SAS" expert is highly suspect, as is the meaningfulness of your "data" about getting killed with your own gun.

Yes, most people who commit suicide with a gun use their own gun. Most people who kill themselves by slashing their wrists use their own knives. Most people who shoot themselves by accident do so with their own gun. Most people who die in car crashes do so in their own car. Most people who die in accidents when they aren't driving are riding with a family member who is driving. All of that is intuitive and not particularly enlightening or useful. Sorry, but your posts are still unfounded and uninformative. They are merely unsubstantiated opinion.

Zeno

04-15-2004, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A competent, honest police force is the precise reason that we don't need guns.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the state that I live in by choice there are 3 requirements for becoming a State Policeman.

1. You must graduate from High School
2. You must not have a felony conviction
3. You must be at least 5' 4" tall.

You then enter a 'Police Academy' for Six months of training. Let me repeat that - Six complete months of training. When the recruits graduate (and almost all do so) they are flung onto the streets with a gun strapped on and a 12 gauge in their police car and they are free to shoot down just about any one they please.

Fully 50% of the police force in my state are morons and/or power mongers and bullies.

Of course many states do have tougher requirements and more fully screen recruits for their state police force. Large city police forces may also have tougher requirements but many do not, and some smaller municipalities can have even less stringent requirements.

So in America we have a wide diversity of police ‘professionalism’. Some are very competent and professional and serve with pride and dignity. But there are also many police departments around the country, both state, county (sheriff departments), and city that are below par and some are downright moronic and are full of frauds and quacks and are an embarrassment to the majority of people they are suppose to serve.

You need to protect yourself from your supposed protectors.

-Zeno

Wake up CALL

04-15-2004, 02:51 PM

I found an interesting comparison Superleeds.

Here (http://www.med.utah.edu/healthinfo/pediatric/Safety/frarmsta.htm) is my source compared to your source (http://www.lpch.org/diseasehealthinfo/healthlibrary/safety/frarmsta.html) . I find it interesting that the source you provided shows inflated figures compared to the nearly identical wording (yet different statisitcal numbers inserted) of the University of Utah website. I just wonder who was trying to fudge on the actual numbers and for what ulterior motive.

MMMMMM

04-15-2004, 02:55 PM

"An attacker (who has disarmed you and is now threatening you with your own weapon) will probably not realize this and his confusion at failing to spread your brains across the wall may give you the edge that results in your survival."

This is the most absurb and most unlikely of the most oft-quoted scenarios. I'll leave it to others to elaborate.

superleeds

04-15-2004, 03:06 PM

Your source seems to be more current, those big numbers 1997 and 1999 for instance, they are dates.

Yes their is some varience in the fiqures. The most gratifying being the reduction in fatal deaths. 88 is still 88 too mant tho. Accidents increased unfortunately.

No fudge just different fiqures for different years. Read don't scan.

MMMMMM

04-15-2004, 03:09 PM

Gamblor: "Perhaps your police force needs more funding.

A competent, honest police force is the precise reason that we don't need guns."

Police cannot usually stop violent crime; in most cases they can respond only after the violence has been committed.

I suspect that the reason you think you "don't need guns" is more due to a competent, honest citizenry than to the police force. But that may change.

Wake up CALL

04-15-2004, 03:11 PM

Here I was trying to be polite and informative and you give me an off the cuff "read don't scan". Well cowboy I also dispute the date as being accurate in your link since the rest of the wording in both articles is identical other than the stats and the years. Why wouldn't the year be changed if much of the other data was altered as well? So think don't believe.

Here is a Link (http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html) you may not care much for either. It has US government statistics showing what a low percentege of firearm deaths are compared to all deaths in the US, updated late in 2003.

Gamblor

04-15-2004, 03:19 PM

They are a deterrent as well as protection.

God if you all think this way I am far more thrilled than I have ever been to say I don't live in the USA.

MMMMMM

04-15-2004, 03:30 PM

Sure they're a deterrent, but what good does that do you if they deter a crime 5 blocks away while you get attacked?

The point is, they can't prevent all crime, or even close to it.

Don't worry, in Canada the violent crime rate will be increasing soon (maybe it has already). As Canada gets more lower-income immigrants you can lay odds the crime rate will go up.

superleeds

04-15-2004, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well cowboy I also dispute the date as being accurate in your link since the rest of the wording in both articles is identical other than the stats and the years.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a reason that both have nearly identical wording, they are both taken from the same source. Namely safekids (http://www.safekids.org)

For 2000 they give the fatal injury fiqure as 86 for children under 14 years of age. Of course maybe I'm blind to their real agenda, I'm just assuming they may have childrens welfare at heart. Let me think about it.

Here is the link (http://www.safekids.org/content_documents/nskw03_report.pdf) to the latest fiqures I can find.

Thank you for the link you supplied. I do care for it. From the date listed I assume these deaths occured in 2002.

I see 776 accidental deaths due to a discharge of a firearm (86 of them children 14 years or younger) and I guess you see just 0.8% of all accidental deaths are caused by the accidental discharge of a firearm.

As someone once said there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

One very sad note, your stats show that 1 child who was less than a year old died due to a firearm accident. If you want to buy a gun, fine, do it, but for gods sake treat it with respect and make sure children can never get access to it. That is the only point I was trying to make.

ThaSaltCracka

04-15-2004, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
God if you all think this way I am far more thrilled than I have ever been to say I don't live in the USA.

[/ QUOTE ]
From what I hear, B.C. has had an increasing problem with crime associated with the drug trade. The drugs they sell in the U.S. come back to Canada in the form of harder drugs and guns.
Again I think you live in sheltered enviroment. There is much more to Canada than the 20-30 miles surrounding you.

ThaSaltCracka

04-15-2004, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One very sad note, your stats show that 1 child who was less than a year old died due to a firearm accident. If you want to buy a gun, fine, do it, but for gods sake treat it with respect and make sure children can never get access to it. That is the only point I was trying to make.

[/ QUOTE ]
I feel the same way. I don't particulary like guns either, but if your going to own one, don't treat it lightly. Gun ownership is a huge responsibility.

Zeno

04-15-2004, 04:18 PM

Gamblor,

I was responding to the part of your post about the 'professionalism' that you professed for the Canadian police forces. I countered that in the US we have a very uneven professional police force and this may partially explain why we hold different views about the subjects under discussion.

I did not state that police do not prevent or deter crime - just that, in general, Americas are probably more distrustful of police, on average, than Canadians are. There are probably a large variety of factors as to why this is, some cultural some historic etc.

[ QUOTE ]
God if you all think this way I am far more thrilled than I have ever been to say I don't live in the USA.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, every country has good and bad points, pluses and minuses. You may indeed be, overall, better off being a Canadian rather than a US citizen. I cannot make a firm judgment on this, as I have never lived in Canada though I have visited on numerous occasions (to BC) and always enjoyed it very much.

-Zeno

Wake up CALL

04-15-2004, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to buy a gun, fine, do it, but for gods sake treat it with respect and make sure children can never get access to it. That is the only point I was trying to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you 100% sir, well said. Also thanks to the link for safekids, I was wondering where the data had originated since it was obviously a third source due to the similarity in wording. I do wish the original source had been an impartial agency so that one could safely rely on the accuracy.

Phat Mack

04-15-2004, 05:34 PM

I've decided to go with the Ruger Super Redhawk.

Good choice, John.

I figure I can stop both humans and elephants from breaking into the house.

All well and good, but how does it work on all those Narraganset cans in the back of your pickup?

Phat Mack

04-15-2004, 05:38 PM

im going with the .454 casul.

Sissy. I carry a .25 acp Colt vest pocket. It takes a real man to carry a gun that wouldn't frighten an adult squirrel.

benfranklin

04-15-2004, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I figure I can stop both humans and elephants from breaking into the house.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will find that just having a good handgun also acts as a deterrent. For as long as I've had my .44 Magnum, I can honestly say that I have not seen a single elephant in the neighborhood.

benfranklin

04-15-2004, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Sissy. I carry a .25 acp Colt vest pocket. It takes a real man to carry a gun that wouldn't frighten an adult squirrel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always found that to be an adequate caliber for Lone Star cans in the back of the pickup. But you have to be sure to get them center-of-mass. They charge when wounded.

Ray Zee

04-15-2004, 08:51 PM

boris, the 340 pd is the best pocket carry gun for personal defense i have ever seen. but as a fun shooting thing there are much better choices as there are better choices for the gun you keep at home. that is another thread we can start. just remember to take out your pocket protector with the pencils in it before you put your gun in.

Boris

04-16-2004, 04:43 AM

The 34opd is what I most need at this time. For guns that are fun to shoot I'll start that thread.

Cptkernow

04-16-2004, 10:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This must be why the SAS used the Browning Hi Power for years. That weapon is similar to a 1911 .45 but John Browning saw the folly of a grip safety and took it off. So the Hi Power only has a thumb safety and was designed to be carried cocked. This SAS guy is a typical gun control idiot.

P.S. I not only have seen a Browning hi power, but heaven forbid I own one and have even shot it. I think I will carry it one day soon in honor of the SAS guy. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Actualy the SAS guy was giving advice vis a ve if I was a harmless/easy to disarm civilian guy I would own this gun namely a Cobra squeeze grip. His views on gun control were not expressed and how you infer that they were from my post is beyond me.