Playing trash-hand from BB. J4o

[House-Lion]

Playing trash-hand from BB. Any sugestions to different play or should I simply check-fold on the flop?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 <font color="purple">(looose)</font> calls, MP1 <font color="purple">(maniac)</font> folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
Hero checks, looose checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, looose calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
Hero checks, looose checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, looose calls.

River: (8.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">looose bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero folds, looose calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 12.25 BB, between looose and Button.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Button (12.25 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
looose shows Qc 3h (two pair, queens and threes).
Button shows 9s 8s (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Button wins 12.25 BB. </font>

[Yeknom58]

If you CR the flop you had better lead the turn. You basically want everyone to fold or you want to charge the draws/overcards. If your plan was to check the turn why did you CR the flop? I think I like betting out more than CR because it migh get checked through and you have no idea where the bet might come from.

[Mangatang]

I fold this one on the flop. No need to risk chips with this hand. There will be plenty of better opprotunities to get your money in with.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold this one on the flop. No need to risk chips with this hand. There will be plenty of better opprotunities to get your money in with.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you also check/fold KK on an A high flop against 2 opponents right?

[rigoletto]

Excellent checkraise on the flop, but you absolutely MUST follow up on the turn. You have a weak hand and can't afford to give free cards.

[asdf1234]

I was going to say well played, until the turn. Your checkraise on the flop is excellent, and my preferred way to play these types of hands. You need to lead the turn, though. You absolutely have to. If you're popped, you can probably give it up, but bet the turn.

[House-Lion]

Thanks for the input.

I think I like the betting out best really since if I am raised, I could fold. (Jack no kicker...).

Another alternative is to fold right away, cant say that is bad, but it's not apetizing. I could very well be drawing dead against a better Jack.

Very right that I should lead on the turn, I think I got scared about how bad my hand was (but it was not that bad until river...) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ResidentParanoid]

I like the check-raise on the flop if you have any kind of read on the button, and if you can get it heads up. If you know looose will likely call 2 on the flop, this isn't as effective, but let him call 2 bets to chase you.

I don't think I would check-raise again on the turn. I would likely bet it, and see what happens, planning to fold to any raise.

check-folding to the river raise is OK with me.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like the betting out best really since if I am raised, I could fold. (Jack no kicker...).


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this play at all on this board. You could be raised by a flush draw, 9T, or an 8 with an overcard.

The flop checkraise was the best play. You need to lead the turn. You can normally fold to a turn raise here.

[Mangatang]

What am I missing here? He has top pair (Jacks at that) with a weak kicker.

I make a lot of my money against weak players who continue to push top pair no kicker. Why should our hero keep pushing this hand?

Maybe I'm just used to playing against really poor players, and I can affort to wait for more of an edge. In a tournament or a tight/tricky table I might try this play.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
What am I missing here? He has top pair (Jacks at that) with a weak kicker.

I make a lot of my money against weak players who continue to push top pair no kicker. Why should our hero keep pushing this hand?

Maybe I'm just used to playing against really poor players, and I can affort to wait for more of an edge. In a tournament or a tight/tricky table I might try this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I make a lot of money against dumb players who calls my top pair with 2nd and 3rd pair!

[JTG51]

Maybe I'm just used to playing against really poor players, and I can affort to wait for more of an edge. In a tournament or a tight/tricky table I might try this play.

You've got that backwards. In a tournament where losing a hand can mean losing the whole tournament you might want to pass up small edges to wait for bigger ones. In a ring game you want to find every edge you can, no matter how small.

Oh, and bet the flop.

[Mangatang]

I guess I'm just weak-tight, or too much of a Lee Jones follower. Rigoletto, I'm sure you're a better player than me, and can judge when to make these plays. I think I'm beter off just sticking to the book (for now anyway). I'm still doing quite well without making this play.

Thanks for the responses, and good luck.

[Mangatang]

In a tournament where losing a hand can mean losing the whole tournament you might want to pass up small edges to wait for bigger ones.

That makes sense. I'm not much of a tournament player, in fact, I've never read a book on tournament strategy, yet.

But I still think there's no need to push very small edges (at least for beginning players) in these soft low-limit games.

Later.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm just weak-tight, or too much of a Lee Jones follower. Rigoletto, I'm sure you're a better player than me, and can judge when to make these plays. I think I'm beter off just sticking to the book (for now anyway). I'm still doing quite well without making this play.

Thanks for the responses, and good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree whole heartedly. Poker is discipline and knowing ones limitations and with this comes avoiding situations with tough decisions. Don't stop developing your game though!

[James Boston]

The 7s shouldn't have been a scare card for you. You raised the flop, but didn't get 3-bet. So why did you go into check call mode. I can see folding with a possible flush and an overcard, but you should have bet the turn.

[James Boston]

It's top pair! Sure he has a weak kicker, but put a bet out and see what happens. Top pair with a weak kicker isn't an automatic fold, it's just a hand you don't want to get too attached to and lose too much money.

[JTG51]

But I still think there's no need to push very small edges (at least for beginning players) in these soft low-limit games.

That's true if you are satisfied making 1 BB/Hr, or whatever it may be. If you want to make 1.5 BB/Hr or 2 BB/Hr, you definitely need to push small edges. Same goes for if you want to move up and beat bigger, tougher games.