Short stack decision

[Thebram]

This was a $10 SnG.
There were 5 players left and the blinds were up to 150/300. I was short stack at the table with about 1200 chips. I posted the big blind, leaving me with 900. UTG had about 3000 chips and open raised for the minimum to 600.
It was folded around to me, and I had A6o.

I felt that my decision should be push or fold here, but decided not to give myself the chance of making the right decision and just called the extra 300.

The flop came 2 A 9 rainbow. UTG led out and bet all-in. I guess, realizing that I made a mistake pre-flop, I decided to try and continue with the trend, and fold.

If I had folded preflop, I could have survived a few orbits, and would have a reasonable chance to get a better hand to push in on. But since I stayed, and hit the ace that I was hoping for, was fearing my weak kicker too weak of a play?

I guess my question is, which was the bigger mistake, the preflop call, or the flop fold?

[La Brujita]

I would say the failure to call on the flop is a bigger mistake. You aren't going to get much of a better chance to double up than that. He could have many many hands that you have beat.

Anyone can please correct me if I am writing crazy here but I don't think a flat call before the flop is that much of a terrible play. It is hard for me to explain why except that you are probably/possibly getting correct odds to call, and you have a cheap chance to see if an ace or a six flops. I know I always seem to suggest fold or reraise but a flat call seems fine to me pre flop.

[Prickly Pete]

I believe something's off with your account of the hand. You said you called from the BB after UTG raised. And then UTG led out betting, putting you allin on the flop. You would have had to check first, maybe you just didn't mention it. Either way, you hit your hand on the flop. Check-call it. As he will bet this 95% of the time and even if he doesn't, the free card most likely won't hurt you.

And yes, I'd say the flop fold is worse. Preflop is dicey. I'd go by my read. An UTG raiser may well have a big ace and you'd want to fold. If you think it's just a big stack bullying, maybe allin reraise is better. I'd say either is better than calling and missing the flop 2 out of 3 times. And without a read, I'd probably fold.

[TylerD]

IMO the fold on the flop was HORRIBLE. You have top pair, what were you hoping to hit? You have to go all-in here.

[lacky]

I think you made the best point when u said the choice was push or fold. Any time you have less than 5x the big blind I think if you have to contribute anything to the pot the only decision is to push it all in or fold. The person with lots of chips will always make a small bet into a short stack because you’re weak, so you have no way of knowing where you stand. So, push or fold.

[adanthar]

First time poster, some time lurker, but I've put in a chunk of time at Party SNG's. Here's my input:

-What would a UTG raise with in a Party 10+1? A large chunk of the time they're stealing with worthless hands or equally low aces- but even if he's a decent player, with 5 players left he's just as likely to do it with a pair of 8's. However, let's assume he's tight and will only do that with a 5 way premium hand.

-Said premium hand will be a mid-pair or AT or higher that will beat your ace. He would likely go all in to protect almost any of his hands on that flop, since you showed weakness by not betting the flop and unless you hold an ace you will not call. You're getting 600:1350 or just over 2:1 odds to call. Do you think there's a 1 out of 3 chance he doesn't have an ace, or has A8 or A7 (which will tie or lose to your hand on that board over 40% of the time when it pairs or you draw out) or lower?

-If you fold once you see the flop (why?), you've 600 chips with a 150 chip SB coming up and will certainly be called on any all in from this point on, with 3 hands left until you must do so. If you double up on *that* all in you'll be right back at 1200 chips with the blinds likely at 400/200. Based on the above, I would say that folding on the flop is a terrible play.

-Calling the PF raise is a different story. I'd tend towards calling or pushing based on the fact that this is a 10+1 Party SNG and they're equally likely to raise on a short stack with the mighty K8o, while your short stack won't survive another orbit much better with 900 than 600. On the other hand, I am *not* a good NL player and this play might be too loose here.

Personally? I'd call PF and push or make a bet of about half my stack on the flop with the intention of pushing (letting him know I have an ace; if he wants to put me all in with KK he's welcome to do so, and if he wants to call my bet we're going all in on the turn anyway.)

[LetsRock]

Your preflop move is a 50/50 IMO. You may not be wrong to fold or shove. I don't see calling as a good option. You just don't have enough chips to have any clout. I probably would have opted to fold unless UTG was a real loony. If it came to me unraised, I probably would have shoved (Gap concept).

Given that you called, you have to shove on the flop. What exactly were you hoping to hit with an A6o? You hit top pair and while you may be behind, you're not likely to get a better opportunity to double through in the next orbit, so you have to take your chances at his point.

[La Brujita]

I guess I am back to try to explain my thinking on the pre flop call.

The benefits of a raise all in are:

1. You may get someone to lay down a better hand
2. You may win by showing down the best hand

The problem is a reraise doesn't create enough leverage to get UTG to fold any hand. So your main benefit of a raise is to get your money in with the best hand. The problem is are you confident you have the best hand? It looks like you clearly have enough hand so that a fold is not an option but I am ambivalant about a raise.

Getting such a large percentage of your chips in is going to cause you some extremely tricky decisions post flop, no doubt about that.

It might be close to committing yourself to calling any flop bet I agree, but I just don't know what huge benefit you get with a raise.

As for a fold, you are calling 300 into a pot with 1050 in it. That is tough laydown to make with a pretty decent hand.

I am wondering if this is still crazy talk on my part?

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
This was a $10 SnG.
There were 5 players left and the blinds were up to 150/300. I was short stack at the table with about 1200 chips. I posted the big blind, leaving me with 900. UTG had about 3000 chips and open raised for the minimum to 600.
It was folded around to me, and I had A6o.

I felt that my decision should be push or fold here, but decided not to give myself the chance of making the right decision and just called the extra 300.

The flop came 2 A 9 rainbow. UTG led out and bet all-in. I guess, realizing that I made a mistake pre-flop, I decided to try and continue with the trend, and fold.

If I had folded preflop, I could have survived a few orbits, and would have a reasonable chance to get a better hand to push in on. But since I stayed, and hit the ace that I was hoping for, was fearing my weak kicker too weak of a play?

I guess my question is, which was the bigger mistake, the preflop call, or the flop fold?


[/ QUOTE ]


The flop fold was horrible and I don't like the preflop call either. But if you call preflop you cant fold when an A flops. What were you looking to flop besides an A, two pair or better?

With only 4x the BB I think all in preflop is the best play, with folding second and calling last. If UTG is a known super tight player folding is much closer, it is also closer if there are 4 left instead of 5.