My problem... Online vs B&M

[DoughBoy]

Hey guys,

I lurk here every day, enjoy reading some of the banter going on, and have picked up quite a bit of information. Thanks a lot. I've been playing poker for many years in home games, less in casinos(more lately), and only a few months online.

I'm a small limit(2/4, 3/6) player that does it for entertainment value more than looking for any type of fiscal return. That being said... I play to win, not to lose.

Why the hell can't I beat a stinkin game online? I feel confident in home games and at the various B&M establishments. I'm happy with that. I can average +6bb an hour, I get to play a game, have fun, drink, eat, socialize, etc. and leave with some extra cash.

Now, online poker... I started playing at .50/1 tables. I end up going on a bit of a slide right off the bat(in the first couple weeks I'm down about 60bb). Over the next couple weeks I improve to being up about 40bb. Sure it sucks, but I figure its just a bit of a learning curve. Now, after about 5 months of playing yo-yo, I'm down 200bb. Now sure, that is hardley something to consider a 'loss', but as I said before I'm not playing for the money, I'm playing for the fun of winning (the money is just a bonus).

So what the HELL is going on here? I read a lot on the various forums, the books, posts, the newsgroup, articles, magazines, etc. about poker. I'm a better player than my losing (below average) online record shows. Should I just give up Online and chalk it up to being 'not for me'? Do I just suck and not want to admit it? Is it just the micro limit online games and I'm not playing them right?

After reading about the 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6 games online, I don't think I wanna dump any more time/money online.

Any comments are welcome. Just don't rip me apart, I cry easily.

[Chief911]

Hey,

I'm FAR from an expert, but here's my 2 cents.

It took me about 500-1000 hands online to be able to consistantly beat the .5/1 game. Its a weird game, because of how many people chase their hands. You see a high percentage of flushes, boats, etc because of that.

What I finally did to beat the .5/1 game, was to play somewhat ABC Poker, as alot of the higher end game like check raises, etc dont scare people out (As they most likely dont know they are being check-raised). I mean, if you get 5 people to see a flop, all 5 of em will most likely see the turn, and 3 of em the river. So bluffing is rarely effective unless you get heads up.

I just waited for the very good starting pairs, Axs's, and suited connectors. That seemed to be a good recipe for success, and with around 3000 hands in pokertracker that seems to bear out (Although that is a small sample size).

Anyhow, the tough part is, the swings can be weird down there as there are so many rivered flushes, etc. But patience is the key.

The last thing I did, was I found myself getting bored and playing hands I shouldn't, and losing money on them. So instead of playing one table, I normally play two tables of .5/1 (Now 1/2) and one 10/1 SNG as I enjoy those more and pay attention to those between decisions on the ring games. That's improved the types of hands I play alot, as I dont play the crap I might have before.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

p.s. I give this thread 2-1 odds that someone says wrong forum.

[MaxPower]

There are many people who have had similar experiences to you (myself included).

I had a good deal of sucess playing in casinos before starting playing online. At that time Paradise was the main site and the games were pretty tough. I lost my first couple of buy-ins. After examining my play I realized that I wasn't that good. I was making plenty of mistakes (even more than I do now).

I realized that I was winning in casinos either because the games were much softer or because I hadn't played enough hours to figure out how good I really was.

Online you can play many more hands than you could in a casino and you find out how good you really are. The fact that you say you are winning 6BB per hour in casinos indicates that you just haven't put in many hours. Home games is a whole other deal because of the lack of rake and your familiarity with the players.

Chances are your problem is that you are an OK player, but not good enough to beat the rake. I takes a lot of work to improve. If you are willing to do the work, then it will pay off. If you are not, then either quit or resign yourself to being a small loser and have fun.

Good luck.

[DoughBoy]

Thanks for the post. I've been playing tight/aggres. poker, the same game I play elsewhere and win with, but getting my arse handed to me. I tried to loosen up a bit and play some more hands... I just lost faster. Based on how many hands I average per session over the last 5 months, I've got around 9,000 to 10,000 hands in. Does that seem accurate?

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. I give this thread 2-1 odds that someone says wrong forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was debating where I should put this post... General, small Stakes, MicroLimit, B&M, Psychology, etc. I figured General would be good.

[LetsRock]

For some reason, online poker is "different" than live poker. It's the same game, the same goofy players and the same odds, but the flow is just different.

But on-line poker is beatable. Probably more beatable than B&M because the rake is lower and you don't piss away money on tips.

You may just be having a rough stretch, or maybe your game is not as solid as you believe it to be. Because you will play so many more hands/hr on-line than you will in a B&M game, leaks are much more costly.

I've had some tough stretches on-line and have actually stopped playing at a couple of the sites because it was so brutal. I don't really blame the sites for my misfortune, but if my initial experience at a site leaves a bad taste, I'm just not going to be able to go there with any confidence, so I just play at the sites where I have had good experiences - the tough streaks are a little more bearable because I know (I have proof) that I can win there. This sounds a little superstitious (ie unlucky seat, bad dealer... blah, blah, blah) but it really is just a matter of confidence. If I'm not comfortable being there, I'm less likely to play well.

If you feel you just can't win at your regular site, try another one.

But your best bet is to work out your game and make sure your bad streaks are not do to your own leaks.

Another factor is frequency. IF you don't play B&M games regularly, you may have a distorted view of how well you actually do there. If you don't keep good records and you just play once a month, or a couple times a year, it's easy to make yourself believe that you're a "winner" even though you may not be. You may be using selective memory to recall the good (profitable) sessions and dismiss the losing nights to "bad luck" ( so they don't really count ). Many people do this, which is why the same losing players keep returning.

On-line, financial reality is very clear, especially if you play a lot.

[OrangeHeat]

[ QUOTE ]
On-line, financial reality is very clear, especially if you play a lot.


[/ QUOTE ]

The number one reason we have all those "online poker is rigged" posts. It is very easy to perceive yourself as a winning player at B&M when your really not. People remember the wins and not the losses.

This poster actually has it the right way and has asked if he maybe is not using the right strategy or needs to brush up on his game. IMHO he is a thinking person who will win some day if he does the work.

Orange

[astroglide]

6bb/hr?

[namknils]

[ QUOTE ]
6bb/hr?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only response I took the time to read.

I stopped at this point in the initial thread too. My guess is that you don't really know how well you do in B&M/Home games, you just assume you do really well. Well, you probably are overestimating yourself as a player. I'm guessing you don't keep records of how you do in those games, but there is no way to escape your records in the online games. I'd say just read some, and critique your game honestly.

-nam

sorry if this is a little harsh.

[DoughBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6bb/hr?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only response I took the time to read.

I stopped at this point in the initial thread too. My guess is that you don't really know how well you do in B&M/Home games, you just assume you do really well. Well, you probably are overestimating yourself as a player. I'm guessing you don't keep records of how you do in those games, but there is no way to escape your records in the online games. I'd say just read some, and critique your game honestly.

-nam

sorry if this is a little harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Harsh doesn't matter. Truth does. I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want crticism, comments, or whatever. Without external input, I’d be sitting here stewing in my own vacuum... and that won’t get me anywhere.

While the assumption that I don't keep accurate records of my wins/losses in my home games/B&M games is wrong, I've been taking all the posts that have been written into consideration.

I play aprox 2-3 times a month at B&M, 2-3 times a week in home games, and up until the last few weeks, at least an hour or two every night online (average online... some night none, some niights 4 or 5 hours).

Had I left out all of my play in the last 3 months from my home games, I'd be much farther ahead in my 'big bets per hour' figure.

I'm willing to accept the idea that I might not have a large enough sample from B&M to depend on my results being very accurate (in respect to my being a better poker player than my online results show).

I'd say I'm a bit excessive about pursuing a goal, whatever the subject. I've read everything I can get my hands on. I own Caro's books, Sklansky, Jones, Carson, Malmuth. Either bought myself or given to me by friends. I frequent this site, rgp, and many of the other sites/boards/posts/etc. that have ANY information on poker. Although I've only read them all once or twice, I'm starting to go back through them and highlight the various things that I don't completely remember/understand.

Thank all of you for your input and anyone else who will comment. I might be just going through a bad time or I have to find the leaks. Most likely the latter, but I’ll have to analyze my game further.

I’m going to dump another bit of cash into a new online account and see how it works out.

[astroglide]

nobody makes 6bb/hr at a single table in limit games (or anywhere near that) over a lot of hours

[DoughBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
nobody makes 6bb/hr at a single table in limit games (or anywhere near that) over a lot of hours

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for you reply. It was ever-so-helpful in my effort to figure out what is wrong. No really, it was. Honest.

[astroglide]

i think it makes it very clear that you are lacking fundamentals if you think it is remotely reasonable to earn 6bb per table hour consistently. you have to walk before you fly. if you're posting here, it should be painfully apparent how you can improve.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say I'm a bit excessive about pursuing a goal, whatever the subject. I've read everything I can get my hands on. I own Caro's books, Sklansky, Jones, Carson, Malmuth. Either bought myself or given to me by friends. I frequent this site, rgp, and many of the other sites/boards/posts/etc. that have ANY information on poker. Although I've only read them all once or twice, I'm starting to go back through them and highlight the various things that I don't completely remember/understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, owning the books isn't enough. Anybody can buy the books. Anybody can read the forums. What sets winners apart from the rest is what they do with the information.

In fact, if you've read these books, and are having a hard time beating .5/1, I would say you really haven't read them, or you're sample size isn't large enough... or you're not paying good enough attention, or you are tilting..

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the post. I've been playing tight/aggres. poker

[/ QUOTE ]

This is always a red flag to me. The reasoning goes along the lines like this:

Someone, let's say his name is Bob, reads about poker and hears the tight aggresive poker is the winning style. Bob plays some poker (either BM or online), and takes a couple wins. Therefore, Bob thinks to himself, I must be playing tight aggressive. ("Hey I raise with aces, and don't chase two outers") Then, Bob hits a losing streak, and is confused because his "tight aggressive" style is losing, but everybody else says it should win. "What's up with this?", he thinks... He may even claim that online poker is rigged because he's not winning with his "tight-aggressive" style..


Ok.. you get the idea... Part of the problem is that it's easy to become results orientated, and only pay attention to short term results, therefore not always giving one good indications of how one should play.. Focus on good play. Post problem hands on the small stakes forum..

You probably don't really play good tight aggressive poker. But, that's ok. Most of us didn't when we started reading and posting here. You have the opportunity to learn.


good luck

[Joe826]

I actually find myself in the exact opposite position. I've only recently started playing poker to begin with, but my 5,500 or so hands online show me to be a winning player (obviously this is a tiny sample, I just mean so far), but I have a hard time in casinos. I've only been 3 times, and the style is definetly different (although I enjoy it alot more then playing online). I think it's just something i'll have to get use to before i'll have the best of it.

On the tight-aggressive stuff, I'm just now realizing i'm a (recovering) weak-tight player when I've been thinking i'm tight-aggressive from the start. I think much of this is due to Jones' book (which immediately made me a winner). His definition of tight-aggressive is very different from those held in this forum. I'm just now getting through TOP and HPFAP and i'm realizing how little I know.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I started playing at .50/1 tables. I end up going on a bit of a slide right off the bat(in the first couple weeks I'm down about 60bb). Over the next couple weeks I improve to being up about 40bb. Sure it sucks, but I figure its just a bit of a learning curve. Now, after about 5 months of playing yo-yo, I'm down 200bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

DoughBoy,

If you're down 200 BB after 5 months of .50/1, then you have some serious leaks in your game. I would suggest buying some low-limit books and reading the posts in the Micro-limit forums. There's a lot of valuable information there.

The Micro-limits should teach you the fundamentals that will become the foundation of your poker knowledge. You will learn the relative values of starting hands, the value of position, pot odds, etc. At this level, you don't worry about thinking on higher levels, you just play premium cards and win by playing better hands than your opponents.

When you get to the point that you're a consistent winner, you will be able to make most of your decisions with almost no thinking at this level. Then it's time to move up.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually find myself in the exact opposite position. I've only recently started playing poker to begin with, but my 5,500 or so hands online show me to be a winning player (obviously this is a tiny sample, I just mean so far), but I have a hard time in casinos. I've only been 3 times, and the style is definetly different (although I enjoy it alot more then playing online). I think it's just something i'll have to get use to before i'll have the best of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, bob was just an example.

I started playing some home poker with friends, but when I became more serious I played more online, because it was always available. The bulk of my experience is online, so I think I've had a similiar experience.

Coming from online poker, B&M poker is kind of slow and boring. I find myself wanting to do something while playing. In all reality, I should be paying as much attention as I can to the players and the cards they play and how they play them. (I do the latter online to some extent, although at low limits, it's hard to read some players, because most can be inconsistent, or they move around too much).

BTW 5500 hands really isn't enough to show you that you are a winning player... try about 50,000 and see where you are at..

best

[Spyder]

I played online a month before I tried my first B&M. I knew I'd be better at a B&M than Online because I've always been good at reading and playing people. Yes, you have to pay attention to everyone...especially when you aren't in the hand, and, to me, that's part of every game/contest: Knowing your opponent, and playing his weaknesses. I do it in every game I play from Bowling & Golf to Volleyball & Basketball, from Rummy & Canasta to Bridge & Pinochle to Poker....ahh, the competition, I just love the competition /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Spyder

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
I do it in every game I play from Bowling & Golf to Volleyball ....

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you "play your opponent" in bowling or golf? Those sports are all about you vs. you. Do you start needling them, or are you setting them up to get more strokes (or pins) before the game starts?

That's not competition - that's shooting angles! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Spyder]

Nah...you can work your opponents in those games too, its just not as direct...trust me /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Spyder

[Bob L]

Your situation sounds similar to most players who swtich from live to online.Playing online exposes many leaks you didn't know you had live -this is a fact.This explains why many players who win live can't win online.I have never met anyone who wins online who can't win live -it just doesn't happen.You may need someone to help you with your game and get rid of your leaks.If you have no friends who are good enough to do this you might be better off paying someone to tutor/teach you.I have helped many friends/players and have found it pays off for them in the long run.
Nevertheless you have some definate flaws in your game.Don't get offended -just do your best to improve or just don't play with illusions of winning in long run.

[beta77]

While I am in agreement with all of the other posts as to the possible reasons for your lack of success online (weak-tight, unrealistic win rate expectations, etc.), I would like to offer that it is POSSIBLE that you are just on a bad run of cards. I usually experience a -200BB event approximately once every 10-12 weeks, and it is not unusual for these events to take place over the course of 10k hands (4 days of play). Since this is the number of hands that you think you have played online so far, I think that it is possible, albeit statistically unlikely.

Just another thought to consider.

Good luck.