What to do when you're having an awfully bad run

[Hung]

I've had the worst week ever. I don't know how to explain this. I think I'm cursed. I've lost 6 sessions in a row. Maybe I got too lucky for a long time. I do not have years of experience, I've been playing since December 2002, that's not even 1,5 year. It's normal to have ups and downs. Those are the normal swings. As long as you don't lose at the end of the road. This month is going to be tough for me, really tough. With 6 losing session, I'm down to more then 3K. Every time I sit down and I play I lose about 500 in no time, not even one hour playing. I do not do anything crazy, I play my hands strong. I got KK 3 times, won one time (small) and lost two times big. One time AA against 4 players all in preflop. I lost, wich is normal, too many players. UTG raised, middle positon, moves all in $70, I raise my all in $150. Get another caller with $9Ts and he wins the pot with a straight. These things don't bother me, but it happens too much the last few days. I don't know how to handle it. I stop after these big losses. So I can't tilt. I take a good rest and when I start again, it's the same sh*t again. Should I take a long break? I don't think a break will help, because poker is about winning at the end, right? I'm afraid I'll have my first losing month.

It's like I'm cursed. I get so many big hands in short time. KK, AA, AK. Party has put me on losing mode. Is it time to switch to the (also) cursed stars?

[MicroBob]

perhaps time to step down in levels for a spell.


i had been winning for 3-4 months....i think i had around 11 winning sessions in a row up until a couple of weeks ago.

now i have gone on a losing streak of about a week-and-a-half (my ptracker numbers for April are frightening).
took a weekend to play some small-money stars multi's for fun to give my mind and ego a break (even won a $3 re-buy satellite thing for $215 tourney-bucks).

got back to ring-game play today ready to take on the world....and it's back to the same old stuff.

for me, every flopped 2-pair, straight and trips seem to run into a 4-flush board and i have nothing of that suit and a 3c or something takes it down. yuck!!
today's session is 20% seeing flops (i believe 16% VPIP) with a whopping 4% hands won and -30BB.

if you have confidence in your game then keep plugging away. if you suspect that part of the problem might be you then step down in levels and work on your game a bit more. if you still know your game is decent but are still somehow lacking confidence....then that is another good reason to step down a level.


i already knew i wasn't THAT good to begin with.....but a correction of this magnitude still really stings.

[Hung]

I do not consider myself as a great player. You do not need to be a great player to beat online poker. You've to be patient and calm. And I'm always patient and calm. I'll take one week off. I tried to move down, playing $50 or $25 tables. But it bores me too much. I can't focus on those tables, because the pots are so small compared to the pots I'm used to win/lose. In NL you don't have much choice in limits. You've $25, $50, $100 and $200 tables. The $25 & $50 are almost the same. $25 has way more fish because it's the smallest table. The $50 players tend to be a bit tighter. Your winnings wont increase much on the $50 tables. So it's better to move up to $100. $100 is not tough, not as much fish (because less tables), but still easy if you stay focused and patient. $200 is exactly the same as the $100 tables, I see no difference in skills.
I can move down, but I don't see any reason to move down. The players are bad on all the levels. The difference between no limit and limit is that you can find plenty of fish on the biggest table. It's harder to find a lot of fish on the same table when playing limit. I think the good limit players all take a litte share of the fish. When playing no limit only one player takes it all.

I think I already know what I have to do. Accept my loss and keep playing.

[goodguy_1]

Hung running bad is part of the game for all winning players.I seem to run really bad every 6 months or so and whenever it happens it's is still very painful eventhu I'm suppossed to be acclimated to it after 4 years of full-time playing.Latest stretch was 6 weeks of really frightening beats in NL and Limit incessant beats.Not only that but I have run frighteningly bad in MTT's for an extended time period-runner-runners and 3-5 outers heads-up have hit me consistently at any stage early or close to the bubble-this has been very disheartening and it hasnt stopped.It has gotten so bad that I now play only small MTT's rather than bigger ones.When things get better I'll play higher buy-ins but not now.The beats just keep acomin.

What I do when running bad is first take time off.But when you are a professional and your only source of income is poker-you must play...so you gotta get back in there and put in your hours.

I think currently all online games are in a tightening up mode which I havent seen say since September 2003 which was a little pause for a month or 2 of course all of these obesrvations are colored by my own struggles/results.This time I think games may not bounce back so quickly.Games evolve and usually for the worst.Right now since the beginnning of the year all my hourly averages are down across the board in NLHE and LHE-only PLO games have stayed "super-fishy" .Not to say games arent still good they are but you need to be more selective and right now the pool of players versus say 2-4 months ago in general play better post-flop in either NL or LHE.The use of PokerTracker has really illuminated the changing environment often I'll seat myself in either a supposed "good" NLHE or LHE game with anice beefy pot average,sit down and see from my PT notes that there are 4-7 solid tight players...not too fuggin cool /images/graemlins/frown.gif That means higher fluctuations and if you are running bad you are going to struggle,lose or break even.Breaking even for 3-4 weeks of online play of 400-600 table-hours is a really horrendous run-thats 3 months of B&M play-enough to make you quit for good.

If you are a diligent winning player and want to maintain that you're going need to adjust and play better to the game you are focusing on.In this "less fabulously fishy" environment you need to play better and longer hours to make the same amount of money.This means numero uno-NO TILTING-I have found for at least me personally when the games get tougher or less easy and are populated by say 4-7 decent/good players at least at NL-it is much easier to go on TILT...this is ruinous...when games were supper-fishy over last year we could make up for this lost money from TILT by extracting money from the fishies..well guess what there are still fishies but not as many and the FISH can learn to play too!Worst of all many semi-fish can be tricky post-flop especailly in bigbet games.

so avoid TILT-and dont say you arent tilting and use the excuse the games are so good-blah blah I'm running so bad.USUALLY running bad I've found is a combination of changing game environment,really bad luck and some really poor play for extended periods of time.The bad luck usually being the biggest factor I agree!! IF you are continuously losing huge chuncks of your stack or your whole stack with overpairs in your NL games you are probably running bad BUT also definetly TILTING or overplaying your hands.

You need to adjust to the changing environmet-We all run bad.As games change if you dont adjust your strategy as the games get tougher you are screwed.

continue to play solid hours .IF you continue to run bad step down and play lower.You will get back to winning soon I'm sure.Stay within your BR and comfort zone and all will work out.

[MrGrob]

I play No Limit 5$ sit and goes (2, 5, 10, it doesn't matter), and FORCE myself to think, and make plays, and play the players more then the cards....

I find that this clears some rust off, and gets me thinking more creatively. I have found that the bad run seems to stop, and I become more able to really PLAY poker again.

[goodguy_1]

wow I just read your first response and I'm quite bemused by it ..you seem kind of oblivious to the changing environment.
NLHE games need fish or else they just become complete rockfests.

There are huge differences in the Party $50,$100 and $200 NLHE games.All of them are much less fishy then they were 2-4 months ago.

In the meantime the Limit games have also tightened up but not nearly as much as the NLHE games.NLHE games tend to dry up.The fish cant keep on losin at the higher rate and frequency that they do in NL and just keep coming back with a smile on their face.

NLHE games are going to get even worse.Thats why you gotta be able to play both Limit and NL. I forsee myself playing possibly more Limit specifically 6MAX if NL games continue to deteriorate at the current rate.

That being said the new 6MAX NL tables are quite good but seem to be having a bad effect on the FULL games.

[Hung]

Hey goodguy, you're really a good guy /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I remember playing with you a long time ago on the $25 tables. I suppose you also moved up. I haven't seen you since. A lot of people have changed their name or switched account. It's really hard to keep track of the players.
I recently bought poker tracker. I don't know how to use it yet. The program shows so many things, that it's hard to find what you're looking for. I haven't read the manual yet. I have replayed a few of my "bad beats". Afterwards I realise it was not really a bad beat. For example my KK's yesterday. I got so many KK's, I thought somebody messed with my pc. I had about $120. EP raises from $2 to $5. One caller and I move all-in. I don't know why, I already lost once with KK 5 minutes ago. So I wanted to end it quickly. Stupid play. He would only call with AA. The guy in EP calls with A8o. Flop comes with an ace. doh!!! Turn comes, a K. woohoo!!! River comes a fourth heart giving him a flush with his 8 of hearts!! I thought was going to cry. But it was my own fault. On the other side, I could not prevent this. Except raising a little and then folding on the flop.

Anyway, I feel better. I always feel better after one night sleep. Wait untill I come home and I start my computer. Nightmare is gonna start again.
Thanks for your post. I have changed a lot. I used to bug people with a few small bad beat stories. I complained about stupid stuff, because I was unexperienced. I did not realize a bad run could take so long. I take poker more seriously. I know people don't like to hear you complain. They don't give a sh*t. Nobody cares about a loser whining about his loss. Everyone goes through the pain and hard time. After this bad run, I'll become stronger. If I can turn this month into profit, I'll spend one month playing tournies. To get a seat for WPT or WSOP. I'll play the 425 + $25 sit & go on stars. And who knows. I'll get a trip to Vegas for only 500 bucks. A cheap holiday. It doesn't matter if I bust out first. As long as I can go /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[goodguy_1]

Hi Hung: dude you must use PT -it will really help you out.

I know exactly what you are talking about with the big all-in moves.In general I find that playing small-bet NL works better when I'm running badly.

I still play mostly NL mostly $50's and $100's Full and 6MAX.I also play in good $25 games still.I have no pride /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Baulucky]

I play limit exclusively and when I lose 75 BBs, I inmediately move down in limits till I recover my previous loss, sometimes I have moved down 2 times in limits before I can move up again. The damage is surprisingly contained. Had I stayed in the "normal" limit I'd be out with a bad run of 250 BBs that happened earlier this year. I'm no great player, but I seem to notice the games aren't as easy as last December, even at the fishier sites like Crypto.

[Your Mom]

I have been going through this since February now. I don't know what the hell to do. Every time, I string together two winning sessions in a row, I start thinking I am out of it. Then I drop a grand in a few days and I am in the hole even more. What frustrates me is knowing that idiots are taking my hard earned money. They don't deserve it. I just keep plugging away, waiting for the tide to turn.

[Your Mom]

I feel good every time I sit down, like I am going to win. I think I have continued to play my same game, but it just isn't working for me either. Nothing else to do but keep playing. I really don't see what taking some time off will do. As long as you are playing well and not tilting, you still have an edge. That's the way I look at it anyway.

[Hung]

I completly understand what you're feeling.
The anger of people winning huge pots with crazy hands. I cannot understand how stupid people can be. And the problem is that they never show the losing hand, so when you win the pot you do not realise how stupid the other guy was. You only realise it when you lose the pot.
Today I played small games on UB and won $40. Which is peanuts, but I'll stop for today. One hour of playing is enough. At least I have a winning session.

Keep hanging in there. The tide will turn (I hope)

[lostinthought]

if no limit ring games are your normal game, and you're not willing to step down - consider trying something new..

learn stud.. learn omaha.. play sng's, play muli tables..

they say variety is the spice of life.
it sounds like your running bad, and you're starting to tilt and not play well because of it..

or.. you're just burnt out..

I smile whenever I get badly beaten.. (at least most of the time)

It means the games are still good.

Anyways.. mix it up. Get back in the zone..make sure you're playing good poker.

[harboral]

Poker, athough called many "neat sounding" things like 'pure aggression', is in reality just about survival. It may be true also that "Life is at best, a gamble", but if you lose your bankroll, you can't pay anymore.

There are times to go boldly and aggressively forward, pounding your opponents mercilessly - and there are times to holster your weapons and retreat.

Those who learn to temper their play and are wiling to lose the battle when necessary, can go forward at a later date to continue their quest to win the war.

I've been known to take breaks, take regular jobs, and take my shot at self-employement over the twenty years I have been playing, but have always come back strong to my first love.

Believe me, the game has changed a lot over the rocky course of my playing career, but I have (too damn slowly at times) learned to tread the grounds softly at each turn and re-learn what I thought I already knew as the evolution of poker has continued.

When I am playing full-time, I often play other games during a bad-streak. I also have no problem going from the $10/$20 game to a juicy $4/8, better a big fish in a small pond. This past week I played poorly, and knew I needed a break, so.............I played some tournments, played some Omaha H/L and some 7-stud. This week has been a lot of fun, and very profitable. Change is good.

Survival of the fitist applies to poker. Learn to adapt, and survive.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I still play mostly NL mostly $50's and $100's Full and 6MAX.I also play in good $25 games still.I have no pride /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one reason why goodguy will continue to make a living at this game if he wants while others who have just been running good will bust out when they refuse to play smaller games when either skill or bankroll indicates they should.

[Hung]

if no limit ring games are your normal game, and you're not willing to step down - consider trying something new..

It's not that I don't want to move down. It has nothing to do with pride. Those game are just to small. There's nothing in between. It will take me months to win the amount I could win in hours.
My regular game is PLO hi lo and hold'em. I switched back to hold'em because my edge is a little better.
Today I had one small winning session. It will be ok (soon) Pray for me /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
I completly understand what you're feeling.
The anger of people winning huge pots with crazy hands. I cannot understand how stupid people can be. And the problem is that they never show the losing hand, so when you win the pot you do not realise how stupid the other guy was. You only realise it when you lose the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

At Party (and I think Stars), the hand histories display the final hands of everyone in the showdown, whether or not they mucked their cards. And if you replay the hand in Poker Tracker, you can step through it and graphically see exactly how the player behaved on every street, and it will help you come to some kind of conclusion about what makes him(her) stick around until the bitter end, or raise like a looney. You can then make a note on the player in PT, and export it to your site notes for future reference (i.e., make the note in PT, export it to your Party notes, and the next time you see that player on Party, they'll be ready for you to refresh your memory).


[ QUOTE ]
Today I played small games on UB and won $40. Which is peanuts, but I'll stop for today. One hour of playing is enough. At least I have a winning session.

[/ QUOTE ]

Always a good feeling, no matter what the level. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[ QUOTE ]
Keep hanging in there. The tide will turn (I hope)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, indeed. It always does, eventually. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Mike

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if no limit ring games are your normal game, and you're not willing to step down - consider trying something new..


[/ QUOTE ]
It's not that I don't want to move down. It has nothing to do with pride. Those game are just to small. There's nothing in between. It will take me months to win the amount I could win in hours.
My regular game is PLO hi lo and hold'em. I switched back to hold'em because my edge is a little better.
Today I had one small winning session. It will be ok (soon) Pray for me /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Must I repeat myself? I pray that you will pay attention to what people are suggesting rather than pray that you happen to run good again..

good luck

[daryn]

especially in a $5 sng i would play the cards rather than the players.

[Troy92]

You are so right. It is about survival and being in position to strike when the opportunity is right.

I have often felt that winning can be more dangerous than losing. It gives you a false sense that gambling is easy and that it takes little effort to make money and repeat it. I went through an incredibily hot stretch beginning in late January where I was on the plus side 42 out of 52 days, often setting personal best days. I increased a couple levels. But I went one level higher than I should have. I went on tilt one night as I watched my strong cards get ripped apart by garbage. I kept thinking I should be winning. In hindsight, I believe it was a combination of bad luck and being outplayed by better players--the pots I won were small and the ones I lost were big. I damaged my bankroll. I no longer had the proper bankroll for my normal levels. When I continued to run cold there I almost wiped out my bankroll. Pride was getting the best of me as I kept expecting the tide to turn. I could only win in 5 of the next 15 days. I have finally sucked it up and dropped down a couple levels to repair my bankroll and game.

The three lessons from this bad stretch are:

1) don't overstep your bankroll and playing level;

2) Play within your bankroll, even if this means dropping down a level or two until you can build it back; and

3) Bank small wins. When the cards haven't been going your way for a stretch, there is nothing worse for your psyche than having the opportunity to walk away from a table ahead, only to have stayed too long and find yourself in another hole.

[Drunk Bob]

"It will take me months to win what I could win in hours". Bad thinking dude.

[Losing all]

Great point. I wonder how many "I'm making $100+ per hour" posters have busted out over the last several months as Goodguy grinds along. He might have a huge poker ego, I don't know, but it doesn't come across in his posts, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't let it cost him money at a poker table.

I think a lot of the wannabe pros, myself included are better served by reading about his approach to making a living than much of the "superstar" or "100k in 100 days" stuff.

Hell, I'd like to sit across from Mason at a 80-160 or next to Chan at the WSOP, but I have lots of time for that.

[Your Mom]

Glad to check in and report a $550 win tonight playing 5/10 SH on Empire. Hopefully, it keeps up. Hope the rest of you are kicking ass too.

[Ulysses]

Nice. When you're playing against a bunch of morons sucking out on you left and right, it's just a matter of time.

A matter of time 'til you either go on tilt and blow a lot of money or a matter of time 'til you turn things around.

Good job.

[MicroBob]

"It has nothing to do with pride. Those game are just to small."


huh????

Contradiction Alert!! Contradiction Alert!!!

(sirens, lights and buzzersall blaring at same time)

[Hung]

"It has nothing to do with pride. Those game are just to small."

The reason is not pride. I can still play for fun or for cents. Anyone will agree that we play to win money. The reason I sit down at a table is not to chat or make friends, find a lover or whatever. I take a seat to take the others money. It does not matter who's money it is. I could move down to the $25 tables and play for fun or to calm down. I am calm and I'll have fun when I start to win again. So there's no reason to move down (for now). You make it sound like I feel too good to play $25 tables.
My dream is not to play with Chan, Brunson or Mason. I don't want to become the best player. I want to make money. And to make money you've to be better then the average player. No need to be the number 1.
I think my dream changed. I used to like the thought of playing against the world best players. But why try to fight the best if you can beat the weak?

[Hung]

At Party (and I think Stars), the hand histories display the final hands of everyone in the showdown, whether or not they mucked their cards.

Most of the time I'm too lazy to go and see what they had. Sometimes when i'm curious I send the hand. But by the time I read the e-mail the moment is over. That's what I like about UB. You can see the hand right away and then close the hand history window.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At Party (and I think Stars), the hand histories display the final hands of everyone in the showdown, whether or not they mucked their cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time I'm too lazy to go and see what they had. Sometimes when i'm curious I send the hand. But by the time I read the e-mail the moment is over. That's what I like about UB. You can see the hand right away and then close the hand history window.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't the original poster's point that you can do this on party poker as well?
Man, you are stubborn.. I give up.

[Hung]

I give up.
Never give up. What were you trying?

He/you are correct. A few upgrades ago party added this feature. I forgot all about it.
I did not want to prove anything. I was just saying that when you win a pot you don't really care what the other guy holds. When you lose you pay more attention to the bad cards people play.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
I give up.
[ QUOTE ]
Never give up. What were you trying?

He/you are correct. A few upgrades ago party added this feature. I forgot all about it.
I did not want to prove anything. I was just saying that when you win a pot you don't really care what the other guy holds. When you lose you pay more attention to the bad cards people play.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Need I say more?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I was just saying that when you win a pot you don't really care what the other guy holds. When you lose you pay more attention to the bad cards people play.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you paid more attention to what your opponents had in the pots you win, you might not lose as much the times you lose.

[MicroBob]

"I was just saying that when you win a pot you don't really care what the other guy holds. When you lose you pay more attention to the bad cards people play. "


i pay attention to the cards the others are playing regardless of whether i am winning or losing.
i will take notes as to the lousy hands they took to the river (or the strong hands that i was able to beat if that's the case).

the ability to check the opponents' cards is a valuable tool and i try to use it at every opportunity.
i would think this would actually be more crucial in NL where i suspect you see fewer opponent hands.


saying things like 'i don't care as much about the opponents' cards when i am winning' is not a healthy mind-set for a +ev player.


edit - whoops, sorry. i didnt see that ulysses had basically said the same thing already.

[AKhearts]

Consistent big wins should not be your main concern. The small wins all add up too and its better winning small than losing period right? You just hit a bad spell of cards and it happens to the best of all of us but we just have to get through those times. Don't let this week affect the way you play for the rest of the month. Good cards to ya!!!
AKhearts