isolated with KQs...SOP?

[Rico Suave]

Opponent unknown to me.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Rico is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Rico raises</font>, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds, Rico calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Rico checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Rico calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Rico checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Rico calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Rico bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 9.25 BB, between Rico and Button.</font>

--Rico

[Trix]

I would check-call the river aswell, as I think that I´ll have to call a raise there heads up and I think the chance that he has a better hand will be bigger than the chance of him making some fancy river bluff raise.

[Haupt_234]

I bet the flop to see where the opponent stands, and then call down to a raise at the very least.

Haupt_234

[Dynasty]

Heads-up against an aggressive opponent, I would always play the flop and turn like this.

[Haupt_234]

Where does it say the opponent is aggressive? He has no read...


Haupt_234

[Trix]

I bet the flop to see where the opponent stands, and then call down to a raise at the very least.

Where does he stand if he raise and where if he calls ?

[Haupt_234]

If he calls, I keep betting until he shows strength.

If he raises, I call down.

Does the button raiser have to have AK or AA to 3-bet preflop? I don't understand why one would play so passively to a 3-bet, possible isolation button raise...

I just don't see betting into the raiser being a bad play here.

Haupt_234

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Where does it say the opponent is aggressive? He has no read...

[/ QUOTE ]

The original post says "Button 3-bets".

That's my read.

[bdypdx]

"Where does it say the opponent is aggressive?"

Button made it 3.... aggressive...

[Haupt_234]

Either way, he is only behind to AA KK or AK.

So the opponent is aggressive, couldn't he have 1010 JJ QQ AQ or AJs?

Perhaps he would auto-raise for a free card since he is aggressive. But betting into the raiser when hitting top pair, good kicker shouldn't be out of the question. I believe Super System supports this idea...


Haupt_234

[asdf1234]

Why would you want to scare him away from bluffing?

[Haupt_234]

If he's aggressive, won't he take a stab anyway?

Even if he doesn't raise, he will still call down to the river. So betting into him wouldn't be a bad play since you would either get the same amount of bets or more, if he raises as a bluff/ free card.

Haupt_234

[bdypdx]

You asked: "Where does it say the opponent is aggressive? He has no read..."

Umm...he/she 3 bet...I'd say that's aggressive.

[Haupt_234]

But i'm saying that someone doesn't have to be aggressive to 3-bet JJ QQ 1010 or AQ on the button.

This is automatic to many.

Haupt_234

[bdypdx]

ok

[asdf1234]

[ QUOTE ]
he will still call down to the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he call down to the river if he has nothing?

The way you're suggesting, you're going to lose more if you're behind, and don't win very much if the opponent is sane and you're ahead.

[Haupt_234]

How would you not win as much if you bet into an aggressive opponent with top pair, Q kicker?

If he is aggressive, like everyone says, he will raise to test your hand, go for the free card, or because he has your KQ beat. This raise is an additional bet if he does not have you beat, since there is most likely only 3 hands that could beat you anyway (AA KK AK).

So you gain a sb, possibly more if you decide to 3-bet.

I guess my theory may be flawed since many are going against the betting into the raiser, but it is just my opinion. I guess I need more of a reason to not bet into the raiser other than "he is aggressive". This just seems like more of a reason to bet into him.

Comments appreciated.

Haupt_234

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe Super System supports this idea...



[/ QUOTE ]

In super/system the game in which this is recommended is No-limit. And leading into the raiser in that case is usually done because you WANT to get raised so you can reraise. With your hand and this flop you dont really want to get raised...

[Haupt_234]

Ok, i'm saying that the hand can only be reasonably beaten by AA KK or AK.

The opponent is aggressive.

I say bet into him with probably the 4th best reasonable hand (unless he has a premium hand- if he does, pay him off).

I would WANT to be raised by an aggressive opponent with a worse hand, since he would most likely suspect a steal and raise because he wants to try for a free card due to his "aggressive behavior".

How is check-calling the whole thing a better option? I don't see many more advantages, only that you fear AA KK or AK.

Am I just ultra aggressive??!

Haupt_234

[asdf1234]

There's no read that he's a maniac or a calling station. If you're ahead and he doesn't have anything, when you push at the pot, that's it, he's probably not going any further, and all you win is the money that went in preflop plus maybe 1 or 2 SB on the flop, and you miss out on bets he would have bluffed off.

If you're behind, however, and you get too aggressive, you're going to get pounded for a lot of bets without a lot of outs.

[James Boston]

I might have check-raised the turn. Otherwise, you did fine.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Haupt:


[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop to see where the opponent stands, and then call down to a raise at the very least.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting into the preflop raiser has merit if there others in the pot, but since it is heads up, and with that flop, I think check calling is best.

The range of hands that the button could be 3-betting me with I would put at 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ. Now if I bet into him (and with that drawless flop, and considering I raised pf, that is pretty much telling him I have a K) it would be bad for me if he chose to fold his TT or JJ or QQ or AQ. I would much prefer for him to continue on with any of these hands. Of course, if he holds one of the other hands and I bet into him, I am just costing myself more money, because I intend to call him down.

So the reason I check call, is that when I am behind I will lose the minimum, and when he is behind, I do not allow him to get away from his hand. My reasoning may not be correct, but that is what I was thinking.

Now I think the river bet is debateable.

--Rico

[Rico Suave]

Hey Trix:

I agree that the river bet is debateable. But I think that it is not a given that AK or AA will automatically raise the river..... am I wrong?

--Rico

[sfer]

Assume that the villain understands that an aggressive play from Rico means a big K. If the villain is solid, he folds. If Rico is ahead, he wins the minimum. If the villain is aggressive, he might continue to bet at Balkii with 99/TT/JJ/QQ. Rico's line lets him win the max when he's behind and lose the minimum when he's ahead. Rico pretty much has to show this down against an unknown.

Given that it's heads-up with no concern about a 3rd player drawing, this is standard.

I like the river bet.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
How would you not win as much if you bet into an aggressive opponent with top pair, Q kicker?

If he is aggressive, like everyone says, he will raise to test your hand, go for the free card

[/ QUOTE ]

Aggressive doesn't mean stupid. If he has QQ, JJ, or TT, he may just fold on the flop and say to himself "Well, he's got AK and has me beat".

If you check to him, he'll think his QQ/JJ/TT is good and bet the whole way.

[skunkworks]

I love threads like this where I learn something new. I follow the check-call on the flop and turn, but what about the river play though?

You don't really want to see this get checked through on the river, which is why I'm assuming our hero bets out... if you bet and got raised, would you fold?

[Dynasty]

I don't fold top pair, heads-up on the river, for one bet unless I have a specific read on a specific opponent.

If you get raised, you should expect to lose. But, some people raise unpredictably. On Friday, in a 20-40 game, I 4-bet pre-flop out of the blinds with QQ, bet every street, and then got raised on the river by a guy who didn't even have top pair on a Ten high board.

The river play in these hands is either bet or check-call. The more aggessive your opponent, the more willing you should be to check to him.

[GuyOnTilt]

isolated with KQs...SOP?

TIS. I play the same on all streets.

GoT

[Rico Suave]

Thanks for everyone's input.

The button had JJ...MHIG.

--Rico