So...is this how to play TT?

[joker122]

UTG is a pretty solid player, don't know much about MP, however.


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds.

I know cold calling is bad, but I didn't feel like the strength of my hand warranted a 3 bet, but I did feel like it was strong enough to play.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

I checked it through because I figured I would only be called if I was beat.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP2 shows Ks Qs (high card, king).
Hero shows Td Ts (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 7.75 BB. </font>

Wow, I dodged 15 outs from MP. Comments?

[Trix]

If I wasn´t comfortable 3betting, then I would fold.

[BigEndian]

You'll be called by worse hands plenty of time, easy river bet. Would you check through QQ if there was a K-rag-rag-rag-rag on the board?

- Jim

[joker122]

What about the cold call PF? Are you a Swift enthusiast, by the way?

[BigEndian]

Calling or 3-betting depends on the table texture. If you reasonably expect the SB or BB to fold regardless, I don't like the 3-bet here (and I'm a raising monkey with TT). If the SB and BB will come along for 2 but not 3, the I would RR. If they are coming along regardless, then also just call imo.

This is without reads on the UTG raisor and cold caller of course and asuming they no nothing about me.

To clarify, I like cold-calling here because you have position and you can let the EP raisor bet his AK into you the whole way. Or raise him on the turn/river, etc. Basically, for deception purposes.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

It's a different BigEndian, an homage to my more geeky days /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

- Jim

[sthief09]

3-bet preflop. bet the river

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a pretty solid player

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you ahead of a solid UTG raise with TT ?

[BigEndian]

Solid covers a wide swath of play. I'm ahead enough if an Ace doesn't fall to get my extra bet in on the turn or river.

- Jim

[The Dude]

You have an easy raise preflop. You want to be sure to knock out the blinds, and you'll have good position and good control the rest of your hand. Plus, you'd really like to know now whether UTG has a 4-betting hand or not. Calling is not just bad here, it's terrible.

Your river bet is not as clear-cut, and it may vary depending on the opponent. However, at the 2-4 level I'll bet against any unkown here. I would have to have a reason not to bet.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you ahead of a solid UTG raise with TT ?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's part of the problem with calling preflop. Had hero 3-bet, we'd have more information, AND it's more likely we can get AK or KQs to fold overs post flop.

[BigEndian]

What's your plan if 4-bet? Do you toss the hand if your don't spike? I think that's a bad plan. Even if they will only cap with AK, AA, KK, QQ, there are plenty of odds if an ace doesn't come for you to call down.

If I have TT, I'm going to the river on a harmless board and a small field. Moreover, I want worse hands like AJo and maybe even ATs, KQs, KQo, KJs and 99/88 to bet into me the whole way. I want to get my raise in on an expensive street once they're invested in the hand.

You may not agree with the cold-call, but it's definitely not terrible.

- Jim

[Trix]

With the extra dead money from CO it might be worth 3betting, but not sure.
Without that I would fold.

Also read this thread: Preflop Quiz (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=551498&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1)

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I want worse hands like AJo and maybe even ATs, KQs, KQo, KJs and 99/88 to bet into me the whole way. I want to get my raise in on an expensive street once they're invested in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your thinking is off in so many spots, I'm not sure where to start.
1. You DEFINATELY want AJ, KQ, and KJ to fold thier overs. No doubt about it. They have 6 legitimate outs against you, and you want to protect your hand.
2. The only hands you listed that you are even remotely okay with them not folding, you listed under the 'maybe I want them to bet' category! ATs is MUCH better for him to hold than AJo. It's not even close. (But still, in a large pot, you'd like him to fold - unless he turns over his cards on the flop so you can see exactly what his overcard is.) 88 and 99 you do want to tag along.
3. Waiting until later streets to raise can be okay on the flop with a not very vulnerable hand or preflop if it looks to be heads-up. TT preflop is WAY to vulnerable to wait like that.
4. Once 'they're invested,' they're getting correct odds to call your raises with only overcards. Take initiative now, so that your future bets/ raises have a higher liklihood of getting them to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
You may not agree with the cold-call, but it's definitely not terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]
I will fold here before I call. And, yes, it is EASILY the worst of the three options.

[BigEndian]

I disagree, but I can be wrong.

If they have over cards, you have the best of it and you are getting even money on the remaining streets. If I'm getting even money on each street and their odds are worse than even money on these streets, I want them to play each of those streets. If I want to win pots, I'll play a tourney. This is a ring game.

The pot is not large, but yes they have odds to call down. Which is why I'm popping it on the turn if an Ace hasn't fallen.

AJ, KQ and KJ are very likely to never fold their overs until the river - this way I can gain another 1/2 - 1 1/2 bets with a board that suits me.

Maybe the 5/10 has me finding ways to get action in the wrong places though. &lt;shrug&gt; Someone else care to chime in?

- Jim

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I will fold here before I call. And, yes, it is EASILY the worst of the three options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although, I do agree that raising is the best play calling is certainly NOT the worst of three options. Folding is.

This is a call or raise situation and calling is not horrible, although raising is much better. Folding here is just plain silly.

[The Dude]

If you were out of position to the raiser, or if the blinds had mucked their hands out of turn, then just calling might not be that bad. In this particular situation, calling is terrible, IMO.

[MarkD]

Would you play 55 in this spot? I probably would (especially if the blinds are likely to come along) and I would just call.

I can't imagine ever folding TT after one raiser and one caller.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
You may not agree with the cold-call, but it's definitely not terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not open-limping UTG with 72 offsuit bad, but it's pretty bad. It's much, much easier to play this hand against one opponent than against two or three. KK and AA are debatable cold calls in that spot but 99-QQ absolutely demand a raise.

[MarkD]

Clearly calling is much better than folding.

If the blinds are coming you can almost play TT here for a call just for the set value (similar to say, 55).

For the record I am strongly in favor of raising as clearly the best play by far, but playing a bit of devil's advocate as well.

[The Dude]

Here's why I consider folding better than just calling here.

The only reason not to play this hand is if UTG will ONLY raise w/ AA-JJ and the blinds are so tight that you can be almost guranteed they're not going to play unless they dominate your hand. If this is the case (not very likely), then you should fold.

Now, if those conditions are not met, then you should play TT here. And as long as you can't gurantee that UTG has you dominated and you're not sure the blinds are going to fold, you MUST raise to protect your hand.

There is merit to calling w/ a hand like 55, but only because it doesn't stand a chance to win unimproved. TT is very different, and therefore must be played differently here.

To restate my point, calling w/ TT might be +EV in some cases here (making it better than folding), but in every one of those cases raising is more +EV. And I can imagine a scenario where calling and raising are both -EV, making folding the best play. Calling is never the best play here, IMO, which is why I think it's worse than calling.

[Nate tha' Great]

Not to be catty, but it's irrelevant whether calling is better than folding (which it is), because all three options are available to you.

[BigEndian]

I don't think you answered my question about your plan if 4-bet. Do you fold after the flop 98% of the time?

- Jim

[BigEndian]

I think I outlined a plan that makes them easy to play and profitable without 3-betting. I ask you the same question I asked Dude, do you fold if you miss your spike on the flop if 4-bet PF? Moment of honesty time /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

- Jim

[MarkD]

Why I made the reference to calling vs. folding is that others in this thread are saying this is a raise or fold situation with calling much worse than folding.

I wasn't trying to second guess you or anything like that. In fact I was quite sure you would say that it was obvious (as you did) that calling is better than folding.

Just don't want there to be any misunderstandings as to my intent. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MarkD]

I'll bite because I'm raising TT here 99.9% of the time.

My answer: No, but it depends on the texture of the flop.

If it comes down: AKx where x /= Ten then I will fold 99.9% of the time.

If it comes down T73 I will probably call and raise the turn.

It it comes down 943 I will likely raise, or possibly call and raise the turn.

Anyways, I could do this all day but in essense his 4 bet does not convince me I'm presently beat (unless I know this player). It does drop his range of hands down, but that range includes AK and AQs for the typical player (AQs only if he is slightly more agressive than normal) and I'll take my chances that this is what he has. I'm willing to invest a couple of bets post flop to find out where I'm at and it's just as likely that AK migh slow down post flop and tip me off as to what he has.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I outlined a plan that makes them easy to play and profitable without 3-betting. I ask you the same question I asked Dude, do you fold if you miss your spike on the flop if 4-bet PF? Moment of honesty time /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I would almost never fold if the flop came something like 862, even if my opponent had capped before the flop.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason not to play this hand is if UTG will ONLY raise w/ AA-JJ and the blinds are so tight that you can be almost guranteed they're not going to play unless they dominate your hand. If this is the case (not very likely), then you should fold.

Now, if those conditions are not met, then you should play TT here. And as long as you can't gurantee that UTG has you dominated and you're not sure the blinds are going to fold, you MUST raise to protect your hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I argue that you should raise for other reasons as well. No where have I stated that calling is better than raising, I think raising is clearly the better play here.

[ QUOTE ]
There is merit to calling w/ a hand like 55, but only because it doesn't stand a chance to win unimproved.


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course there is merit, and the same merit can be applied to TT equally as well as it can to 55 (moreso in fact).

[ QUOTE ]
TT is very different, and therefore must be played differently here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is different, it is better. Surely you can play it the same way and not be any worse off.

[ QUOTE ]
To restate my point, calling w/ TT might be +EV in some cases here (making it better than folding), but in every one of those cases raising is more +EV. And I can imagine a scenario where calling and raising are both -EV, making folding the best play. Calling is never the best play here, IMO, which is why I think it's worse than [folding].

[/ QUOTE ]
(I took the liberty of fixing the last sentence in the quote since the original sentence doesn't make sense and I"m sure this is what you meant.)

This is false logic. Calling and raising are going to both come out to be +EV in the long run in this situation. Folding will be 0. Then clearly calling and raising are both better than folding here (unless you specifically design a situation where folding is the best option).

Let's change the situation slightly. UTG raiser, TWO cold callers and you are on the button. In one situation you have 55. In the other you have TT. Clearly calling with 55 is now +EV (in the original scenario I'd say this was dubious yet still +EV), so calling with TT must also be +EV. The fact that raising TT here will be more +EV than calling with it does not change the fact that the call with TT will be +EV which is greater your EV of folding.

[MarkD]

I would often raise that flop against a 4 bettor.

[BigEndian]

Then the obvious follow up question is: how does the 3-bet make the hand play easier? Plenty of people will simply call your 3-bet with QQ and JJ. It adds many more Ax hands to the mix and a couple more pairs perhaps. But by and large you know mostly what you knew when they open-raised from UTG.

If you aren't folding when 4-bet and you don't spike, then where does the ease of play come from?

- Jim

[MarkD]

I think we are dangerously close to getting too generalized here. I do not want to outline a default line of play for TT on all possible boards.

Having said that, 3-betting here is not just to make the hand easier to play. It is also for value. Often you have the best hand here. Personally, most of my reason for the raise initially is for value but it does make the hand easier to play.

Assume that I 3-bet pre-flop and then got 4 bet and the middle player called. 3 of us to the flop.

Flop: A73. UTG bets, MP calls. I fold. It made this hand easier to play because with a 4 better and a cold caller in front of me I'm beat on this flop. If I wasn't beat on the flop I was beat pre-flop.

Flop: Q73. UTG bet, MP folds, I raise, UTG 3 bets non-chalanty, I call. He fires again on the turn with a blank. I think I can now muck.

Anyways, I don't think I'm making myself clear here because it's tough to explain why it makes the hand easier (tough for me to explain), but it does. I can better evaluate the situations where I am beat post-flop, but more so than that I can better judge teh situations post flop where I am ahead. I think this is the most important point here with regards to making the hand "easier". It is "easier" to extract maximum profit when you are ahead.

[BigEndian]

This isn't generalized at all. I don't believe so at any rate. Certainly, you play TT differently under different scenarios. I also understand the value of TT /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

The specific point was that, in this scenario, 3-betting makes the hand "Easier to play" - the raise would be for information per-se. I also used to subscribe to this, but no longer do for the purposes of long-term value.

The point is that, yes, a 3-bet, if capped tells you that you are very likely against AK-&gt;QQ, maybe JJ. But this information is not enough to fold the hand if an Ace doesn't fall and costs you an extra BB up front. An Ace is only going to fall, from flop to river, a fraction of the time and so only possibly saving you more bets when it does (IF, and only IF you can fold when an ace does fall).

But, most of the time, you will not be 4-bet from the UTG raisor. Gaining you no more information other than they almost definitely do NOT have AA, KK, but getting you another 1/2 bet into the hand before the flop and before you can see the hand develop.

That's why I think that smooth-calling is a better line.

- Jim

[Nate tha' Great]

Jim,

I think that you're missing the largest single virtue of 3-betting, which is that it folds out hands that tend to take equity away from you, e.g., hands containing overcards to your T.

To take the most obvious example ... heads up, TT is a slight favorite against AKs:

http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&amp;b=&amp;d=&amp;h=Ac+Kc%0D%0ATh+Td%0D%0A

However, if QJo is also included in the equation, the scales are tipped significantly in favor of AKs, because TT now stands much less chance of winning unimproved.

http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&amp;b=&amp;d=&amp;h=Ac+Kc%0D%0ATh+Td%0D%0AQs+Jh

Now, granted, both AKs and TT gain apparent preflop equity from a hand like 87s or 55, but those are implied odds type of hands that are only likely to contribute to contribue chips to you if they hit the flop hard, so that EV gain is somewhat illusory.

[BigEndian]

I mentioned this in my second post I think /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I'm picking a bone over 3-betting for information and making the hand easier to play.

- Jim

[Trix]

Hi Nate

Would you 3bet here without the money from the poster ?