KK and A on the Flop

[naphand]

To play or not to play, call or fold the River?

PokerStars $1/$2 6 Max - 5 seated

BB is tight and aggressive with good hands, Button is loose and passive.

I am UTG with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif

PF: I raise, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB raises, I cap, all call.

Flop: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB bets, I call, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB bets, I call, SB calls.

River: 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, I check, Button bets, BB calls, your action?

No problem capping this PF but the flop brings an A and BB comes out firing. I am very tempted to fold here, but I think BB is capable of betting a strong PP into the board and I have a backdoor nut-flush draw so I call (I think perhaps a raise here would be good? fold to a 3-bet?). The Turn delivers a good card for me, but I just call again (I think this was a good time to semi-bluff raise here, small chance a weak A folds with no /images/graemlins/club.gif and also a chance I am ahead. Would a raise achieve much, given BB will surely call with any good A? I might be 3-bet, I can see the River for one more bet as well). River and I am just left with my KK. BB checks, and I think he does not have an A, I check behind (I feel a bet won't push out a weak A OTB now, so no real advantage to betting here?), now Button bets out, BB obviously calls, what to do?

Comments on my play, alternative actions and why would be good. The pot is 14BB.

Results below in white:

<font color="white">I folded expecting Button to show an A and BB QQ or JJ.
BB shows QdQc
Button shows Jh9d
I curse myself for a really dumb fold, compliment BB on his play, Button is an idiot.
</font>

[stoxtrader]

I fold this on the flop without putting in a single bet. Given the results, that looks stupid, but I gotta think you're looking at a 2 outer well over 90% of the time in a capped pre-flop pot with an A on the flop. You almost have odds to draw, but thinking it'll probably come back raised to me, I'd fold to BB's bet...

The number of cap-able (is that a word?) hands out there with an A in them greatly outweigh the non-A capables, combine that with the fact it's 4 handed and I fold, HU it's a different story. 4 handed? buh-bye...

[stoxtrader]

I fold this on the flop without putting in a single bet. Given the results, that looks stupid, but I gotta think you're looking at a 2 outer well over 90% of the time in a capped pre-flop pot with an A on the flop. You almost have odds to draw, but thinking it'll probably come back raised to me, I'd fold to BB's bet...

someone convince me otherwise?


The number of cap-able (is that a word?) hands out there with an A in them greatly outweigh the non-A capables, combine that with the fact it's 4 handed and I fold, HU it's a different story. 4 handed? buh-bye...

[Nate tha' Great]

I don't know that he can fold it on the flop given his backdoor nut flush draw, which gives him something in the neighborhood of 4 total outs if someone else holds an ace, which is plenty getting better than 16:1 if he can get away with putting in just one bet. He'd really like to see at least one more card.

In fact, I'd probably be inclined to raise on the flop in an effort to get it heads up and buy a free card on the river. If he's 3-bet ... well that stinks but I'd still take one off and fold on the turn without improvement. If he's called, that gives me enough hope that MHIG that I'd usually call a bet on the river against just one opponent, and expect to win quite a bit more often than the odds that the pot are offering me.

The pot is big enough that it's worth taking some risks.

[stripsqueez]

i fold this to a single bet on the flop maybe 30% of the time

if the BB is tightish and you want to know if he has a pocket pair then raising the flop will quickly do that - particularly in a 1/2 game i'm not going to lay down until i'm convinced someone has an A - raising the flop seems auto to me - its possible i might get over committed to a pot but not infrequently everyone folds

what i hate about your line is that it smacks of not having a decent plan - your big upside to calling the flop and turn was that neither of them had an A yet for no good reason you abandoned that plan on the river - you should usually play in a manner that makes what you did previously right - in simpler terms you should have a plan - even if its not the best plan its better than no plan

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[naphand]

Yeah I guess so: fail to plan = plan to fail.

Usually I give up on this on the flop, but I suspected that there was a reasonable chance BB was betting a pocket underpair, plus I had a draw. I could have raised the flop, but really did not want to see a 3-bet. The plan was to draw to the flush and just call down to see his hand. I was stuck in the middle and did not want to get caught in any kind of raising war.

What concerned me was the other player calling along, and then betting the River. He was very loose and called with any type of hand. His bet on the River was unusual for him to say the least, with 2nd pair it was even stranger (and quite possibly the last time he did it like this). I should have called the River with that pot esp. as there was no longer a possibility of a re-raise, I guess his bet just threw me. Doh!

The Turn card meant a semi-bluff opportunity, though I think it had little meaning in terms of scaring the other players out as BB was clearly seeing the River, and Button was always the calling station.

I have raised flops like this under these conditions and almost always get 3-bet or called down to see a weak A to beat me. It was just the draw, coupled with BB betting the same with an underpair was just enough kept me in. The plan would have been to call BB's bet on the River, when he checked I suddenly though "oh - he has no A", and then Button bets and I am sure (from his past play) he had to have at least an A. Good read and bad read, but that bet sure looked like I was beat, as calling stations just do not bet this way unless they are really strong. I had to adjust my opinion of Button after this - stupid and sometimes stupid aggressive (though maybe not that stupid, as he correctly read BB as no A or set.

I was pleased with my read on BB, and in the majority of situations I can rely on my reads, but very difficult to read anything into Button as he calls with anything.

The plan was OK, but the engagement switched from BB to Button, and I got that bit wrong. Given what happened, do you call the River? Hoe many times can you expect to see no A given this action?