Leave a table due to multiple "bad beats"?

[Saborion]

I just read a pretty interesting article (http://pokerpages.com/articles/archives/dalla12.htm) over at pokerpages.com by some fella called Nolan Dalla. In that article he claims that even though you have the best of it in a game, and that you're able to beat that game in the long run, it may be better to switch tables after having a couple of good hands broken in a short period of time. This because the fact that the players at the table will start to call you more, making your bluffs, semi-bluffs, raising to isolate players etc not working the way it should, which in turn makes you lose quite some powerful weapons.

What he says in that article has crossed my mind before, I've felt that to be true myself. I've never paid attention to that though since I only play at 2/4 online, where many people come and go, and not everyone is paying attention. I wonder though, what do the pro's that play live think about the advice given in the article? And would you say that it holds true for online games as well? My hunch says it will hold true for 5/10 (and possibly to some extent 3/6) and higher.

[sthief09]

I hope you were joking refering to Nolan Dalla as "some fella" /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I don't think this applies to online.

[Saborion]

I wasn't joking. I have no clue as to who that is, meaning, I have not yet read about him on the Internet or seen him in any WPT or WSOP 2003, as far as I can remember anyway. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bunky9590]

Yep, i've done it. But not everytime it happens. Sometimes i lose the tables "respect" which is very important to my style. So I'll get up and find another table. The bad beats don't affect me so much anymore, but it affects the way others percieve me.

[bernie]

Judging from his description of the 20-40 game,
[ QUOTE ]
The game was really wild, with many large pots and lots of action. In the first 30 minutes, I took a series of tough beats.

[/ QUOTE ]
he wasnt going to be able to bluff/semi bluff much anyways on this type of table. He didnt figure this?

He also fails to talk about how the table texture can change many times during a session. If he wins a couple hands in a row, his image improves. Sometimes instantly.

It sounds almost like a 'how do you beat loose games'/'cant beat bad players' post that we frequently see. Now given the aggressiveness of this game, i might try and find another table. I like it a little more passive.

Another skill he doesnt mention that IS in use is adjusting ones game to fit the table texture/image. I doubt his image was tainted in his short stay at the table. The action he got on his hands didnt change. Or so he doesnt mention it. Was he able to bluff/semi bluff when he first sat down? Doesnt sound like it. It also doesnt sound like anyone else was going to be able to do it either. The skill is letting the others try to (semi)bluff where you know better than to try it. That's also using your bluff/semi bluff skill.

If he likes a better type game or this game affected him to where he gets off his game a little and tilts a bit, fine, ill buy in with him leaving. Or maybe if even he just doesnt know how to play in those games. But not because for 1/2 hour he cant (semi)bluff anyone. That's a poor excuse, imo.

b

[Mike Gallo]

Saborian,

I left a good $6-$12 game this weekend because I did not have my "mojo" at the table.

AviD and Sfer can give more info if they choose to share.

[sthief09]

I was just joking. I enjoy his writing, and he does some great interviews.

[Styles]

Mason mentions something like this in one of the Poker Essays books. I can't remember much about it. I'll have to look or maybe someone remembers.

[Schmed]

I'm no pro and sometimes I will leave because of a couple of bad beats but not for the reasons he said. Mainly my reasons have to do with me and how I may be thinking at the time. If I start to feel hot, or flush, after that kind of beat I will walk away from the table. Even if it's just a mental walk away where I sit there and pay attention to the b-ball game for an orbit of so.

As for not respecting my bluffs and such that is an adjustment you have to make. It's not all that big of a deal in a good game because if you're calling my down with the worst of it trying to give me another bad beat then the math will catch up to you.

[Saborion]

I'm pretty sure the point of the article wasn't that particular game, but whether or not you can do better by leaving a game in which you, as bunky said, have lost the other tables respect.

[Saborion]

As for not respecting my bluffs and such that is an adjustment you have to make.

Sure, you can get around adjusting to the game. But the point was, can you perform better at another table when being able to use all your skills? I'm refering to win / hour. Naturally a good player should be able to adjust and still come out a winner (depending on HOW good the other players are of course), but maybe he could do better at another table. Table selection and being able to play YOUR game is what the article is about. Or am I mistaken?

[AviD]

Indeed he did. I, on the other hand, tried to grind out to better mojo...but should have followed suit with Mike and left as well.

I must say though, and I know Mike isn't one to whine about bad beats, but he had one of the most brutal set of beats on huge pots in a the shortest time period I've ever seen.

The ones I watched at 6/12 (after 2 beats in a row where he didn't show), the third hand (in a row) he had set of threes cracked to a runner, runner flush I believe. Then he rolled over to 10/20 to get away from this particular guy at 6/12 that had Hoyle tattooed on his forehead from the deck hitting him so hard (who I should mention by nights end was down to the felt and pulling money out of his pocket again).

I play three more hands at 6/12 and then stroll over to see how he's holding up. I catch the tail end of a hand where Mike has check raised the turn and the guy calls. Mike comes out betting the river and gets raised...makes the call and felts another set of 3s. The guy lays down a runner,runner low end straight (45o I believe) to bust Mike's second set of 3s in a 15-20 minute time frame.

I ask Mike if he wants to leave, he says no he's good...I head back to 6/12. Short while later Mike comes over and says he's done. He had pocket Ks, capped preflop versus 2 opponents. Flop comes K9x, capped flop. Turn is a blank, but capped with one opponent all-in. River is a 9, 4 or 5 bets heads up.

River opponent tables AA and Mike takes down the side pot.
All-in opponent tables 99 for quads to take out Mike's Ks full and drag the main pot. At least here, Mike took a marginal win because the AA holder went bananas and fortunately (very much so) the 99 holder was all-in on the turn otherwise it would have gotten VERY ugly. But after that, Mike called it a day and went home. Good move to step away from that day!

For me it was an all weekend affair, which made is bearable over time, of mostly 4 board flushes, top two pair snapped by flopped bottom pair into rivered trips, nut flushes in monster pots cracked by rivered boats, etc, etc, etc. For Mike it was like a tidal wave of runner runners in succession and he was smart enough to step away when his mental state went to Tilt-O-Whirl. Just one of those tough weekends, gonna have em...just gotta step away or grind through it.

As Mike said to me, "there's always tomorrow". Some day, I'll learn to step away...I just have one of those mentalities in which I *know* I can beat the game and miss that my head may not be in the game as much as it needs to be (especially after 10+ hours at the table).

[Schmed]

game selection is certainly an issue but he assumes "good game". If it's a good game I'll get my chips back just playing the game I will have to play anyway. Like someone said there are so many changes in game texture per given game that it's almost useless to move because you "think" they aren't respecting your bets like they ought to be.

As I said I hope they don't respect my bets. In the end that will earn me more money than any semibluff I could run.

[Saborion]

Yah. You have a point.

[Mike Gallo]

AviD,

I had to leave. In my mental state I could not beat the game.

I needed to go home break out the Absolut and just relax.

Good playing with you again, next time I will watch the plumber take a bath. You forgot to mention the one time you had the Ace high boat and he had the Queen high boat AAQQ3 and he got frisky with you.

I lost all mental clarity after 21 hours of poker in 30 hours. I do not think I will pull a marathon session like that for a while. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Styles]

Poker Essays II, pg 20, "Running Bad and What To Do About It"

Mason lists 7 Concepts. The First is "Re-examine your game plan" so I think he's saying are you just playing poorly or in this case getting bad beats. If you get out of the 1st Step he then says;
Understand you are now a target, Play tighter than normal, Make less marginal bets and raises, Bluff less, Don't complain about how badly you are running (sort of a re-emphasis on the "target" concept), and Pretend you are winning (Re-buy and/or Color Down to a larger stack).

The last one I have always thought implies you should move. Otherwise you are just becoming a bigger target. IE Hey this guy's losing and he just rebought let's wipe him out.

If you move and pretend you are winning your new opponents will may be convinced and you can quickly retain your image by playing a little tighter than normal and making less bluffs, semi-bluffs and marginal calls (As other posters already said).

I do this somewhat online, but, I have a standard buy-in I use. I move and always re-buy for my standard buy-in. I almost never re-buy at the same table and stay there. Perhaps I'm paranoid but buying in for an unusually large amount I think *some people* would notice and take advantage of as well. With the new "change your name" "feature" at Party I'm particularly cautious about who knows me, that I don't know at the moment. I depend heavily on notes to squeak by.

[Saborion]

With the new "change your name" "feature" at Party
Huh?

[AviD]

Heh, yeah...HU frisky for a few extra BBs...nuttin major. I need to hit a few MW pots, dragging too many small blinds+ pots.

I'm in a recovery state too, way too many table hours for a single weekend. I'll be playing online for awhile during the week and doing some flyfishing on the weekends over the next couple months. Not sure when my next live sit will be...but I'll certainly let you know! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Noodle Bar owns!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sfer]

The table was juicy but absolutely wild. Not to open old wounds but there was also MG's top two--Ks and Qs--burned by The Plumber's rivered flush and set of Ks nailed by, you guessed it, a rivered flush. The Plumber was there the whole time and I rode out a 30 BB swing in each direction.

ID4 was there for a while too (REDDDDD!) and took a nice pot when The Plumber turned trip 5s that filled up ID4's set of Js. Karma.

[AviD]

LOL the "reeeeeeeeeeeedddddddddddddd" was damn funny! Yet, they still didn't care that he had the flush...they called anyway.

The plumber was great, the table was great...lots of action, lots of nice pots...LOTS OF 4 board flushes!!! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

That A4s /images/graemlins/club.gif vs Barry's QTs full really hurt. 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif on the river killed me...when he 3-bet my raise I knew I was toast.

Man just a few MW pots on that table set you well ahead...LOL I also loved that guy later in the night sitting to your right. "The Plumber" was renamed to "The Riverboat Captain". That's my new nick for river rats, just gonna say "NH Captain!" /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
With the new "change your name" "feature" at Party
Huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

you can change your display name at Party now which makes notes obsolete.

[Saborion]

Interesting.
That sucks BIG time...

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting.
That sucks BIG time...

[/ QUOTE ]

it does make you learn to use the "Quick Indicators" though. I guess there is a good side to anything that makes it harder.

[Saborion]

Yah, but you can only switch screen name every six month, so no biggie, especially since I'm sure many won't use it.

Hi Mike,

I did not know the detail except your loss to the quad 9 although AviD told me that you took some brutal ones. Anyway, it was a smart move for you to walk away. I don't know whether I would have the discipline to do that especially with my tight schedule now that I can come only on Saturdays and may not be every Saturday for that matter. In fact, I did exactly the opposite:

I was in a juicy game of 5-10 at Taj and was ahead 40BB in about 2-3 hours. But because my plan was to go to Borgata I walked away from a good game violating a basic tenet of a winning player. Probably it was also because I had the confidence that with my little knowledge and the softness of the Borgata games, I maybe able to make more. But the poker gods turned away their good graces from me. I had long runs of junk cards galore that I bled out all but 1/2 BB of my Taj winnings. In the 3 tables I sat down, (yes I made a few transfers looking for a change of luck) the damn carps or mullets kept on stealing my baits on the few occassions that I had decent, playable hands. It was only on my last transfer where I sat next to AviD and sFer that I was able to recover a little bit. Even then it was not that great. I even tried to trick AviD in a hand and that smart fellow didn't bite. /images/graemlins/frown.gif I'm leaving up to him to post it.
Anyway, I walked away still about 20BB ahead.

BTW, thanks for introducing me to those two fine guys. I had such a great time that made up to my reduced profits. Nice to meet more 2+2ers.

Hope to see u again guys /images/graemlins/wink.gif And next time, I will be prepared to roto-rooter the Plumber. /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Barry]

I know exactly how you felt. It was the same my 1st night playing 15/30 at the Borg'. The key is HOW YOU FEEL. If you're tired, you just have to get away from the table as you can't think straight anymore. That still is the biggest leak in my game; staying in a good game when I'm tired and then start pushing too much.

[PokerBob]

IMO taking "bad beats" is a reason to STAY at a table, but that may depend on my definition of "bad beat". I see a "bad beat" as someone who hits a 2-outer against you or some other miracle draw.

Is this not the situation we want to be in? (i.e someone drawing slim against us but still calling?)

I thought these are the players that we want to play against.

Also, it may appear to my opponents that I am on tilt, and may pay me off when I indeed do have a hand.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mike Gallo]

The key is HOW YOU FEEL. If you're tired, you just have to get away from the table as you can't think straight anymore.

Exactly why I left. I could not think straight anymore. I played from 12:00 to 12:00 the day before and the next day's session started at 12:30 and at 9:30 I had enough.

[Mike Gallo]

Rod,

Nice seeing you again.

How did you like the ambience of the Borgata?

See you soon, my pleasure introducing you to AviD and SFer.

[Ed Miller]

I think that a recent streak of running bad at a table does hurt your EV. I CERTAINLY don't think it's because people start calling you down more. After all, God forbid that people turn into calling stations on me. An example of fuzzy thinking from the article:

[ QUOTE ]
Thereafter, opportunities to steal, drive timid players out of a pot, or bet for value were practically non-existent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, which is it? Did you lose opportunities to steal, or to value bet? You can steal if people are generally folding instead of paying you off with weak hands. You can value bet if people are generally paying you off with weak hands instead of folding. To say you can do less of BOTH is silly.

The reason I think that my EV tends to drop in games where I have been running bad is that my opponents seem to BLUFF more often. Most players do not bluff nearly enough (some never bluff, and many bluff only very rarely, even in heads-up pots). Of course a few people bluff too often, but if the average player decided to add a couple more plays to his game, my long-term winrate would drop significantly.

This sounds like something Mason has said... I'm almost certain that it is. Hell, it's probably in HPFAP.

[GuyOnTilt]

Thereafter, opportunities to steal, drive timid players out of a pot, or bet for value were practically non-existent.

Did anybody else find this one of the stupidest poker statements they've ever read?

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

Doh! I'm turning into Ed Miller... (btw, I'm coming back in 2 weeks and expect you to sack up and play with me this time /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

GoT

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I think that my EV tends to drop in games where I have been running bad is that my opponents seem to BLUFF more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. That's why I would be more inclined to switch tables at an aggressive table than a loose passive one. OTOH if my opponents were predictable/maniac/aggressive I might stay because I could make up all/most of my losses in 1 hand.

[Ed Miller]

Doh! I'm turning into Ed Miller... (btw, I'm coming back in 2 weeks and expect you to sack up and play with me this time )

Fantastic. I'll meet you at the $2-$4 game at the Palms.

[The Dude]

I'm sure 2-4 is not what GoT meant when he said "Sack up." We'd prefer 10-20 at the Mirage, but at least 4-8 at Mandalay Bay so we can make fun of GoT for hating the 1/2 blind structure. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bernie]

What if you never had their respect to begin with? You can play some tables, beat the hell out of them, and they still dont respect you.

No respect = action on your good hands. It doesnt really get much better, does it?

b

[Saborion]

Reading your comment I'm beginning to believe I'll never learn how to beat anything higher than 2/4.